Welcome, This will be a long one, but it will be worth it. I have hope that we can make this dream a reality. This post is not Exhaustive, and I will frequently update it, as there will undoubtedly be more work. My goal is to create a discourse between PanO players so we can all share our gripes and get involved. So if you have any ideas or there is anything about this post you think should be included or altered, don’t hesitate to get your thoughts included, we are all in this together. Hopefully we can come to an agreement. As discussed in our previous thread, I have been working together with a handful of players to brainstorm ideas in order to push Pano back onto the table in a fun and fresh way. But why? I think the general sentiment is that we have lost our identity as the game has progressed. Our advantages on shooting are all but nullified now. Especially in the current meta. Even the new Morats are starting to out shoot PanO and work considerable better together than PanO— than their entire militarily focused way of life. We used to have more visors than anyone, now everyone and their nan has MSV among it all. Well, you can’t just bloat stats up and up, because that won’t solve the inherent problems of panO, and it certainly won’t make them a joy to field on the table. We want better access to play pano the way we have idealised them, as a specialist force. PanO are an unrelenting rock— they should fight with brute force, mitigation their opponents attempts to subvert their own game plan. They are the faction that can carve a rock that will cut paper. But only with due preparation. So what is it that should be done? It’s been open discussion, and complete agreement among all of us partaking in the last thread, that what we need is a complete renewal of what it means to play PanO. Augmenting their lore and existing units with a solid backbone. PanO as an Archetype There are three main pillars that will define this reimagining of PanO: The introduction of superior and more accessible technologies and weapons. The complete overhaul of dud characters and units. The rethinking of our fireteam compositions faction wide. Pano are elite trained Natural Humans, they enhance themselves through the fielding of the technology that THEY pioneer. THEY are the supposed hyperpower. I have hope that we can reach Corvus Beli through this post, so that they can see our understanding of panos complexity in the game space. So that they can see we provide tested resolution to our own factions problems, and can implement them for all of us Pano players. To not only remodel our strategy, so we actually have one, but also bolster our enjoyment of our dwindling faction. To do this I’ve gone all in revising pano lore, character lore, even historical mythology to bring what I feel is a complete list of appropriate changes to our beloved faction. The changes: I’ve tried to compose this post as succinctly as I can, with a section for each design point. Starting with the biggest overall changes to the pano paradigm, the ones that will truly distinct our technological identity and the more important to play test. — Equipment and Arms: To achieve this I’ve devised new, limited, skill given only to a select few troopers, bolstering their use as standalone troops outside of fireteams, and further emphasising our superior technology. You asked for Auxbots, here they are! Following that is the implementation of more advanced weaponry that is unique to PanO. You will not only see more widespread usage of Breaker ammo, you will also start to see more interesting weapon types that haven’t been seen before. Call it The Panoceanian response to Plasma weapons. Character and Unit Overhauls: This is not a difficult task, as unfortunately a lot of our troops are simply either not good, or not fun. I think I have don’t a pretty good job with the worst culprits here. However I am only one man with one taste, so if you feel I’ve missed any units and you have ideas, let me know! I’ll start with the most important change, the one that fills the boots of our entire ideal. Writers note: As I have elected as brief as possible approach in the posts layout, until I find an easier solution, or have more time, I feel the need to say, just for clarity and language barrier, anything that has ‘gains’, ‘changes’ or something ‘removed’, is altering the existing unit profile/s. Sectorial fireteams: This is where play-testing is going to be not only the most difficult, but also the most important. The goal is to push our flexibility to the limits so we can specialise our list for any given match and allow us to be cost effective in fielding our now amazing troopers. This is where we will decide if anything needs a points adjustment or revocation from composition bonuses. I’ve tried to be smart with it, no composition bonuses for Teutonic Knights for example, but I am only one man. Your help is much appreciated for this side of things. With the important stuff out of the way, let us move on to the specific unit changes that are here to help diversify particular troops across our faction, I really only wanted minor changes to a lot of units that fall short in their role, most of us echo that thought but in a different measure, the goal is the same, the improvement of Pano’s fun factor. Help here is generally warranted, I’m only one na. Who plays one way. — Minor changes - Light Infantry: — Minor changes - Medium Infantry: — Minor changes - Heavy Infantry — TAGs: — Remotes: — Minor changes - Skirmishers: — Minor changes - Characters: As mentioned, I have read up as much lore as I possibly can, though limited, there is some really cool stuff out there that our characters never reflect on the table. Each faction has certain characters that you are really torn not to take in every list. Pano doesn’t. — That’s the lot. Thank you all for your attention, and due credit to those that helped bounce ideas. Let’s get to the playtesting and see if we can’t convince CB to give us something special in 2023. To aid in that, this next section is purely to address CB. With these changes in place, you will have an enormous opportunity to capitalise on new pano boxes. To make life easy, here’s a list of the boxes that I would personally be interested in, if these changes are put in place. Bøyg MK12. Knight of justice x3 with Guns Auxbot x4. Updated kirpal Singh + auxbot. Updated LT Stephen RAO Updated Guarda de Assaulto Agnes Ferraria standalone indigo bipandra standalone in gun stance. Uma Sorensen standalone Remodelled bulleteers. Updated Clausewitz uhlans.
If anyone knows of a website or other means to create custom unit profiles in an official style, please let me know. It would be nice to get some legitimate looking cards we can add to the post and print off to help the testing process.
I think I'd also like to see a few SAA changes. I think the following are reasonable. Sorry for the formatting, new to forum posting. Bagh Mari up to BS13 and a new profile with viral marksman rifle. BS12 is too low for a karhu/kamau equivalent and viral is thematic whilst giving them a viable midrange gun. Probably around 26-28 points. Akal changed to reflect the fact they've been practicing martial arts since childhood. CC21, Martial arts LV1 OR remove E/M ccw and replace with Para-ccw(-6). Fireteams: Shock Fireteam - Harris/Core * - 5 Bagh-Mari (shock) 0 - 2 Regular (shock) 0 - 1 Scylla FTO 0 - 1 Charybdis FTO 0 - 1 Drakios FTO Acontecimento Fireteam - Harris/Core * - 5 Bagh-Mari (Acontecimento) * - 5 Regular (Acontecimento) * - 2 Orc (Acontecimento) 0 - 1 Teucer Mobile Fireteam - Duo 0 - 2 Knight of Montesa 0 - 1 Tikbalang Wildcards 0 - 1 Bulleteer (Acontecimento/Shock) 0 - 1 Pathfinder 0 - 1 Lt. Stephen Rao 0 - 1 Agnes 0 - 1 Machinist SAA (Acontecimento/Shock) Aside: I think the Orc tinbot 6p +1 fire team order should be: 5p tactical awareness. It could arguably be cheap still, Zuyong pay 3 points for tacaware.
Howdy, I’m happy to include changes to SAA if that is what our players want, I only haven’t included them as, to my knowledge, the sectorial is considered a legacy army and not taken forward with updates from CB. Personally I think they should at least get the changes made to Drakios and Scylla in the previous update. But we will figure it out! I entirely agree, the reason I made it +1 fireteam order, is to deny incorrect interpretation of its usage, as a tinbot affects the entire team, I want it obvious it only provides one bonus order that is usable by anyone in that fireteam. As for the cost, I imagine you are probably correct. I have already preempted this thought and changed all their costs.
If the Tinbot isn't to provide additional order for everyone, it shouldn't be a Tinbot at all; the ORC should simply get Tactical Awareness. Regarding Bagh-Mari: as a former Acon player I'd definitely like to see them get BS 13, but I'm not sure Viral fits them or PanO theme in general. Some fire on Jungle fighters would be nice though.
Im not entirely sure what you are saying. For clarification: I’ve done it this way to intentionally collide with design, as you only have Ava 2 tinbots, you have to choose whether you gain an order or utility. The order itself is effectively a irregular order that anyone in that fireteam can use. I guess if it isn’t too broken it could be changed to a regular order for the entire army, and I do like that idea. But I’d have to sit down and play with the army builder to see how exploitive that might be with the proposed changes. I dabbled in them to begin with, actually the most success I’ve had in the faction I think thanks to their well rounded nature and extension away from pano game space. i definitely agree BS 13 should be on the cards, since they’re in vanilla I see now reason I can’t add that.
I'm basically saying that even a comprehensive rework of PanO shouldn't introduce too many special rules (Auxiliary is fine, though), and such additional fireteam order would be close enough yet not enough like Tactical Awareness, creating a confusion. Nor should the rework complicate list creation. I'm not sold on the idea of modular approach to ORC Tinbots; I'd rather see specific bonuses tied to specific profiles. And they can be introduced to other units as well.
I can understand your concerns, I think the midpoint is simply +1 regular order for now. I’ll update that now. I don’t think the modular tinbots would cause too much hassle to list creation though. If anything it will create joy, being handled the same way we handle Palbots inclusion. Rather than having an additional 7 orc profiles and 7 different other unit profiles who also have similar tinbots. We have standard orcs and a separate profile called ‘orc tinbots’ below them. It also fits really well into their lore, as the ORC itself isn’t the soldier, it’s the combat armour designed by the Omnia Research Creation Corperation. Flexibility is its thing!
Maybe the Puppetactica approach would work well? A standard ORC list to choose from, and a separate Tinbot list with its own AVA: My concerns are primarily with the accessibility, so that changes can be presented in a clear, easy to understand manner
AHA! Bang on the ball. I knew there was something like that in the army builder but for the life of me I couldn’t find it. This is exactly what I had in mind originally!
Come to think of it, it could be exactly the same with Auxbots. Every unit that can field them gets a table with their choice. This would have three additional benefits: No need to create a separate skill to sync with them Ability to fine control which unit can field which Auxbots Presenting choices in a unified way edit: I also very much like the expansion of the Breaker weapons. Please consider another idea: more Nano weapons. There's Nanopulser and Pulzar, and I always thought that there's more that can be done with them, for example creating a rifle that delivers time-limited, self-replicating nanobots. Let's think of it as a sibling to Multi Rifle: Nano Rifle Range: 0-16 (+3) | 16-32 (-3) | 32-48 (-6) Nano Mode: DAM 13 | Burst 3 | N | BTS | Continuous Damage Anti-Materiel Mode: DAM 13 | Burst 1 | DA | BTS
a good idea, but how would we manage the clarity of their overall faction/sectorial AVA? In this instance it might still be the less confusing option to keep it separate. Any ideas?
A good idea, but how would we manage the clarity of their overall faction/sectorial AVA? In this instance it might still be the less confusing option to keep it separate. Absolutely love that, added it to the potential weapons list!
If you want to maintain a specific army-wide AVA, they need to stay a separate unit entry. If you prefer to control access on the unit level, the table is better. And on a general note, sectorials should have greater AVA of them, while having less options to choose from. Though there also should be sectorial-specific options, unavailable in vanilla. edit: Anti-Materiel Mode should obviously be Burst 1, I've corrected the typo
I see the logic, but I thought this was the same for NCA or have I missed a recent rumour mill/announcement? In my opinion viral fits well. They're historical big game hunters and with the universe spend a lot of time involved as mercenaries in internal Ariadna conflicts (I believe), against which viral is the most effective weapon. If not a viral MMR, I'd still like to see some mid range gun that's not a combi-rifle on them.
I shall look into including them this weekend. At the very least they should be playable and competitive in the current meta, even if they aren’t going to update them entirely.
Ill be honest, I skimmed as far as the Jotum wishlisting. Upon sharing this request with 3 differing Metas, the response was the same. That such a request was a good illustration of personal perception colouring balance considerations. It serves as a clear example of why such lists are frought with personal perception flaws
Well yes, I never said it wasn’t. In actual fact I specifically said I am only one man and want everyone’s help as a collective to iron out my own bias. You would know that If you read past your own preconceived bias. But then, by your own admission, you kinda missed the point of this post. Anything constructive to add, or shall we just leave it there?
Definitely. I like to participate in discussions about balance, because it's a rather interesting puzzle, but I've rarely seen a changelist reach wide acceptance in a community. We've all got slightly different opinions on what a faction/game "should" be, especially with CB being so phenomenally bad at making factions match their advertising (Yu Jing was sold as the CC specialist faction well into N4, for example). My personal gripes for PanO are its slow, direct play and lack of extra orders working at odds with its negligable firepower increase over other factions, and a tendency towards increasingly shallow fluff outside of Knights. Notably, almost nothing above addresses this issue with speed- even removing Locusts from NCA, where I've found them vital for countering Nomad board control! Throwing Marksmanship onto nearly every named character would also turn "NCA's ubiquitous Bolt link" into "everyone in PanO's ubiquitous Quinn/Fusilier link for half the points". This is part of why I think Characters as a rule need to excel in more situtational matchups instead of general play, otherwise they just replace generic units. Or just remove half the over-bloated Character pool- I think only Joan, DeFersen, Gunnar and maybe Singh really stand out as even doing something different these days? This is certainly an area I myself am biased in though, I hate how the character saturation in many lists undercuts the black ops, almost cyberpunk atmosphere the game could sometimes have.
