1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Pack it up boys and girls, Invincible Army isn't next

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by HouseOfKings, Mar 24, 2018.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,820
    Likes Received:
    4,667
    Wait, do you even play YJ?
     
  2. armazingerz

    armazingerz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    196
    Already explained in my following posts, I won't bother to answer if you don't bother to read .
     
  3. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    3,079
    Likes Received:
    5,879
    Can we not start a new round of escalation, I would really appreciate it.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  4. BenMoss

    BenMoss Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2018
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    251
    What evidence do you have that the majority of players are cool with it? Or are you saying that the non-YJ players who had nothing to lose but have just got new things added are happy and that makes it fine to ignore the issues raised by the players who did have something to lose?

    Vanilla might not have taken a hit for you but it clearly has for a number of other people. This was covered by several reasonable posts by a number of people in the April thread (not that you can read any of that any more anyway but more on that below). Short version, efficient units were removed, shell games diminished, assassination threat eliminated. Those all have a direct impact on the outcome of games.

    I get that there was a lot of anger in that thread, and some people on both sides crossed the line and were called out by Psychoticstorm, but there was also a lot of more reasonable content. I'm with you that I think the change could be a good thing long term, however, the thing that has appalled me isn't the entirely expected (and if anything surprisingly tame) reaction of the YJ playerbase but the handling of the whole episode by CB, which could be described as naive at best.

    As I noted in that thread, when you are repairing a relationship of this kind that has been damaged, you should probably expect to have to do three things right for every one thing you did wrong (see all the research available on loss aversion in game settings). So in that context @Teslarod, can you please highlight some examples of this evidence of CB's goodwill?

    All I've got is the post by Gutier upselling JSA and saying that there would be reasons given in the fiction for why the Uprising panned out how it did. Which sadly ended up coming across as more of a sales pitch for JSA than an attempt at addressing the concerns of the many YJ players who were clearly angry.

    I think there are clearly some non-YJ players who fit in this camp, you're almost certainly one of them. Equally, there are players like @Hecaton who I have seen repeatedly backing the views expressed by YJ players. Neither of us should be making sweeping comments about "the community this" or "majority of players that". We have no evidence to back up any claims like that on either side and sadly all that ends up happening is you end up further alienating the players that are already annoyed and pushing the more moderate commenters into back and forth arguments over issues that don't need to be issues which makes it harder for them to reach out to a wider audience and bring concensus and understanding across both groups.
     
    Barrin, silvertongue, Modock and 5 others like this.
  5. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    3,079
    Likes Received:
    5,879
    I would really love to not have it start again.
     
    oldGregg, sarf and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  6. BenMoss

    BenMoss Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2018
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    251
    Then maybe CB should take some responsibility for their part in this mess and be seen to do something about it?

    Can I also suggest that deleting the thread where all this was being discussed previously was perhaps not the greatest plan ever as it was only going to succeed in pissing people off all over again if they'd invested any time at in trying to have a sensible discussion of the issues.[EDIT: Looks like this may have been a simple error that came about as part of deleting the chinese bot spam but sadly happened at a really unfortunate time :( ]

    I get that there were comments that went too far. Warn those individuals and block offending comments if required. But please try to avoid making it look like CB is just sweeping the whole thing under the carpet by deleting entire threads as it's only likely to make things worse.
     
    #466 BenMoss, Apr 2, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
  7. St.Craft

    St.Craft Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2018
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    35
    Too late, man, too late...
     
    oldGregg likes this.
  8. Furiat

    Furiat Mandarin

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2018
    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    255
    They restored the april thread. I can belive it was removed while deleting this strange chinese spam. (joke not intended)
     
  9. BenMoss

    BenMoss Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2018
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    251
    And such are the dangers of perception once people start getting frustrated :(

    I was fairly sure I'd seen it deleted before the chinese spam started but either way, if it's back then all good on that front :)
     
  10. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    3,079
    Likes Received:
    5,879
    No, it was accidentally deleted on one of the big spam purges.
     
    Abrilete, A Mão Esquerda and BenMoss like this.
  11. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,330
    Likes Received:
    2,671
    @FishKing @BenMoss mate you are doing this wrong.

    It's not my problem to make your point for you. Everything you ask for has been talked through twice over already and you still can't be bothered to listen.
    What you were asking for is why people don't agree with you and don't display a shred of empathy for your cause.
    That and only that is the content of my last post.
    You get a preannouncement "YJ players won't be happy" - proceed to claim you never saw anything coming.
    You get a fluff article describing Gutiers vision for JSA and how an eventual uprising could have never been avoided - you scream murder it's about JSA instead of YJ (that kind of thing looks quite selfish).
    You get a detailed explanation about statistical spread of former JSA troops as well as other insights at Adepticon - Not enough, "CB is literally a fascist regime and I feel like someone sent me off to a internment camp because the Shikami had a official YJ coloured dossier"

    Mind you again that wasn't you - BUT there where people entitled enough to word statements akin to the stupidity above or worse.
    That is why you can not demand empathy or much help, really. Those people screwed you over just as much if not more as everyone else and made any chance to get you heard next to impossible.

    The matter has become embarrassing to watch more than ever.
    I don't suppose you are aware YJ players in general are met with the long standing prejudice of being whiners. There exist some rather funny memes on the matter since N1. Not to mention what happened during Wotan again.
    Let's just say if YJ Factions where social media groups I would go out of my way to avoid any association with the YJ one. Mind you that is not my story but the story the archives and old forums tell, I've only been around since N3.
    Now if one wanted to take offense on that, be my guest. I'm simply relaying information I have access to and you're free to nourish existing prejudice with a hyperbolic reaction as you're supposedly expected to.

    Try to see things from the average joe's perspective. He doesn't care if JSA is YJ or NA2, there is a new book with loads of stuff and that is cool. What he certainly doesn't like is the animosity he receives for liking that change and being uninformed on internal YJ matters.
    So you kind of fight a battle where puplic opinion is against you and despite your personal best efforts your "militant right wing department" has more impact and ruins all the work you put into this.


    @Hecaton mate I don't know why you keep purpously failing on reading comprehension. But I'll do you the favour.
    Yes I am playing several Factions including YJ, as you might have noticed when I use "we YJ players" or from the thread titled "dear fellow YJ Players...".
     
    oldGregg and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  12. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    3,079
    Likes Received:
    5,879
    I would rather not close the thread is survived long enouph.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  13. Furiat

    Furiat Mandarin

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2018
    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    255
    Nah. It's still more civilised than before. If people need to express their concerns about the subject or just bash one another, it's better to keep it in one place.
     
  14. Pierzasty

    Pierzasty Null-Space Entity

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    840
    Likes Received:
    2,047
    Trouble getting hold of the opponent before the deadline? :P
     
  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,820
    Likes Received:
    4,667
    On the ITS site it shows you playing less than three...
     
  16. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,330
    Likes Received:
    2,671
    Been playing since the start of N3 and have 4 Sectorials and 3 Vanilla armies. Don't have half as much time as I'd like to run tourneys with my current job requiring odd hours and a lot of travel.
    We also lend/swap armies, for example the Aleph I ran for the German Masters weren't even mine (don't own any ecxept for the loaners in PanO).

    If you're trying to mine any useful data out of my personal ITS records that is way too small a sample size to expect success. Think my most games there are with NCA? Which is funny because they're far from my most played Faction. Should look like my "main army" though. Ran them for an Escalation League where I played everything from Uhlans to Squalos (stuff I probably wouldn't touch for a regular tournament). Was planning Bolts as well, but decided fun is over after only dice carried the Uhlan game and the Squalo turned out to be a massive disappointment (for the Mission I ran him).

    The YJ are playable but completely unpainted, which is another reason not to use them. I've played ISS, JSA, SP, Vanilla Aleph, Vanilla Nomads, Bakunin, Corregidor, Vanilla Ariadna, USA with loaner models for 1-10 games each.

    Hope that satisfies your curiosity regarding my person. Let's just assume you're merely curious and not overly intent to find some Ad Hominem bullshit.
     
    #476 Teslarod, Apr 2, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  17. silvertongue

    silvertongue Hacker retórico

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2017
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    649
    Well, some of us would "really love" for CB to own up and answer some questions, like rough timeframes (not a detailed business plan, mind, just a rough sketch for those of us who have been impacted by this). I guess we all would "really love" for certain things to happen. Perhaps, as had been said time and again, if certain folks stopped telling disappointed YJ players that they have no right to be disappointed because [insert comment that reveals a flawed understanding of statistics] it would just be easier for all of us to find what we "would love".

    Just a thought.
     
    Kallas and Hecaton like this.
  18. Pen-dragon

    Pen-dragon Deva

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2018
    Messages:
    396
    Likes Received:
    872
    I am going to be completely honest. I did not read through 24 pages of ranting. I apologize if i say something that is already said.

    Corvus Bellis sold their customers small pieces of sculpted metal to represent science fiction soldiers. They have provided free of charge a detailed, and functional rule set to wage a wargame with those tiny sculptures. They have provided free of charge a functional and detailed internet app allowing players to make easy to read army lists based on the freely provided rules. They have offered for sale a physical book that duplicates those rules at the time of printing embellished with illustrations and stories.

    They have, for reasons of their own, decided to change the manner in which the freely provided army building rules are used, and which profiles are allowed to go where.

    At no point did they take away anyone's miniatures.

    You may personally dislike the new freely provided army structure. You may openly criticize such decisions, and I for one encouraged an open minded exchange of ideas. You may be upset that the greater community will go along with the changed free rules, as it may isolate you from the way you want to play.

    However I feel the anger and vitriol over the change of a freely provide product to be a bit exhausting and childish.
     
    ambisinister, barakiel, sarf and 3 others like this.
  19. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,893
    Likes Received:
    1,913
    Well, it appears we've gotten what we're going to get, which means you get to choose what you'd like to do from here... however, plowing the same furrows over and again might not yield fruit...
     
  20. silvertongue

    silvertongue Hacker retórico

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2017
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    649
    Then apply that same logic, and don't reply to those of us who keep insisting. Easy peasy.
     
    Kallas and BenMoss like this.