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Order Sergeants vs Securitae

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Firellon, Aug 26, 2018.

  1. Cratesbane

    Cratesbane Well-Known Member

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    As long as we're not talking about FOOTOS? I bring OSes to link with Connie. May as well spend too much on everything.
     
    eciu likes this.
  2. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    That would complicate the formula a lot, and wouldn't even help unbloating lousy CC troops.
     
  3. Firellon

    Firellon Optimising underdogs

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    Well, at least Feuerbach is expensive, while HRL Muyib is the cheapest profile out of all available (whaaat...)

    Religious troop, however fluffy, isn't super useful. Ignoring retreat is cool, but it requires you to get into retreat in the first place - and unless it's Firefight / Annihilation, the opponent won't get you that far if he's mission focused. Also, if you have less than 75pts on the table, you've likely screwed up already. And ignoring Guts roll is useful only if you're lucky enough to survive the shootout - which is rare for 1 W / 1 ARM LI.

    Duo link is... well, not SO good.
    First of all, there is no duo Hospitaller option.
    Second, carrying Knight Duo around without link bonuses means having a lot of points in one place without proper protection for it like +1 Burst
    Third, your options there are:
    - to go kill everybody / set up a sturdy roadblock midfield (with SF Spitfire 360 Santiagos for example, or FK), but you can still use the Bulleteer for exactly the same purpose - it's cheaper and gives your opponent additional -6 to hit). The problem is that when you do this, you have to accept losing the model you set as a roadblock - and the knights are rather expensive just for the sake of holding your opponent for a while and dying
    - to carry around the killer and the specialist at the same time, but our real specialists are already there in the midfield for a cheaper price - it's our precious TOFOOS, which are invisible, do not need to be carried around and also have mines, FO, and also can become a roadblock in suppressive fire (lovely toolbox ^^)

    Now, let's look at the knights that can go Duo:
    - Santiagos - either double Spitfire (does anyone use Spitfire/Combi or Spitfire/BSG?) or Spitfire/Paramedic - both are useful albeit expensive (and they compete with Bulleteer and TOFOOS for the place)
    - FK - you have to take BSG for Duo, so it's either BSG/Hacker or BSG/Spitfire - why would you bother yourself with carrying BSG from your DZ when you can just take one FK instead? I'm a fan of Assault Hacker, but he already covers the close range well, without help of BSG
    - Montesa - lack Specialist options, but you can take LGL/Spitfire or LRL/Spitfire and deploy them midfield to start the slaughter right off the bat - unfortunatly, reliies a lot on your first turn

    So, which of those options do you use often? I had a hard time finding a place for any of those in my lists.
     
  4. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    1 SWC on linkable BS12 Securitate xD
     
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  5. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Now, thats a way to overpay for all the things ;P
     
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  6. Niebieskooki

    Niebieskooki Blue Sun Lieutenant

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    HRL is also 2 SWC on some other models, so you should also mention that.

    A lot of people mentions Zhansi as another misscosted unit but honestly - I'd take zhansi over celestial guard any day of the weak 1+ WIP over 2pt increase on your "main" cheerleader ("main" because there are also Kuang Shi) is not worth it.. The only good thing about celestial guard is that they have smoke grenade profile.
     
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  7. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Usually HRL is cheap pointswise, expensive SWC wise. It's usually 1.5SWC even on LI (on Chaksa it's just 1), but usually costs 0 points compared to combi. That's why it usually comes with some bloat weapon like assault pistol.

    On the other hand LRL is expensive points wise like 6 points or so, while cheap SWC wise, it's 0.5 SWC on Montesa, 1 on Sakiel (though old Tohaa symbionts just get 0.5SWC tax compared to their unit type for being pseudo HI).

    Feuerbach cost similar to a HMG. So it's like extra 8 points (or maybe 16) extra on Uhlan, just for fun.
     
  8. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    HRL are 7 points, LRL are 6 points (for 1 point of damage difference and range bands).
    The SWC for HRL looks like it tracks the trooper, LI = 1, MI = 1.5, HI = 2, but SWC is hand-adjusted as a limiting factor so it's not consistent.
    The SWC for LRL looks like 0.5, but again is clearly hand-adjusted so some profiles pay 0, some 1.
     
  9. derbrizon

    derbrizon Well-Known Member

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    SWC appears to be determined by balance+fluff for everything. I'll never understamd how SWC is costed for some stuff. Kamau hmg: 1swc. Bolt spitfire: 1.5swc.

    Hmmmmmm

    Religious has won me several games with MAF. At this point, I'd argue the cost of religious is losing me games about as often as it's winning them for me. Correctly timing and placing roadblocks is critical. The Santiago is probably the most ideal knight duo due to 360visor. It doesn't have to roadblock. It can be positioned to come in later. A threat your opponent -must- deal with; but is too many orders to risk killin it.

    I have very little MO experience, but I don't like magisters (minmax bleh) and the Joan boat is just silly. I'd probably go Santiago duo and OS Core with hrl and spitfire.
     
  10. Riquende

    Riquende Well-Known Member

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    In my early days I noticed that the standard PanO SWC weapons tend to be 1 on LI or REMs, 1.5 on MI and 2 on HI or TAGs. This isn't universal, so multi snipers seem to always be 1.5, and a combination of good weapons with some skills can see a premium applied, especially if it's quite rare. Quite why some profiles get discounts is beyond me though.
     
  11. Niebieskooki

    Niebieskooki Blue Sun Lieutenant

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    This formula seems to fitting yu-ying and most of ariadna as well after quick glance.
     
  12. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Really? On top of a combi rifle or just by itself? HRL OS costs 2 points more than combi rifle variant, and it also has an assault pistol (which is 3 points I think). So how much does a combi rifle cost? And how much does a chain rifle cost? And what about Shaolins?
     
  13. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    It's quite universal, there are just weapons with fixed SWC costs, like the MSR. Also TO and AD tends to bump the SWC to 1.5 for LI, like the Hexa.
     
  14. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    If you want to see the 1.5 SWC rule for MSRs broken, the TO MSR OS is 2 SWC in Vanilla for some reason. It's definitely Vanilla tax, but still the only Profile I'm aware of that does this.
    Same thing as with the Regular FO suffering 0.5 SWC in Vanilla and SAA for some reason.

    A few examples assuming a basic trooper armed with Pistol Knife and no other weapons:
    • Chain Rifle -2/0 points
    • SMG/Assault Pistol +3 Points
    • LSG 4 points
    • Rifle 4/5 points
    • HRL 7 points
    • Combi Rifle/Rifle+LSG 8 points
    • Missile Launcher 13 points
    • Spitfire 14 points
    • HMG/MSR 16 points
    Weapon cost seems to be linear for for most part, with exceptions. Shaolin CR vs Combi and Myrmidion CR vs Combi indicate some scaling, possibly with the trooper's BS. Basic Rifles also appear to be inconsistent over several troops for an unknown reason. Upgraded costs for SWC guns like HMGs, MSRs etc compared to Rifle profiles are very consistent across everything.
     
  15. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    TOFOOS also costs SWC in vanilla (just that PanO cannot spam HD like vanilla Ariadna can spam various Camo).
     
  16. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Chain rifle price is interesting, I found it's between -9 to -6 compared to a combi. Shaolin is a weird exception, likely because CB didn't want it to cost 2 points (they are 5 pts with a -6 pts chain rifle), same with Ghazi (which is "bloated" with nearly free good weapons) and Kuang shi. Myrmidon has -9pts version, which is nice, since they are elite wielders of the weapon, regular, and only frenzy, unlike the average chain rifle wielders. Also Irmadinho, Morlock have -9pts versions, other examples I found are bit more complicated to calculate, as they have other differences in weapons/skills as well.
     
  17. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Exclusively talking about MSRs that aren't 1.5 SWC. As mentioned there are enough other Profiles with weird SWC in PanO. Unsure why, especially the mentioned 0.5 SWC for the Regular FO in SAA will never stop bugging me.

    All that while the Santiago Spitfire Lt, a Profile you'll pretty much never run due to lack of CoC, costs only 1, which carries over to Vanilla. Thanks CB I guess?
    MO doesn't have a lot of SWC issues or likes running expensive Lts up the field, but hey free Profiles, eh?
    Morlocks and Myrmidions paying 9 points for the upgrade of a Combi suggests their BS11/12 is responsible for the increase in cost compared to BS9 Shaolin.
    Myrmidion might actually pay an additional point over Morlocks that is hidden by rounding. Same reasoning as why the Hospitaler Combi Doc gets a DA CCW for free.
     
    #57 Teslarod, Aug 27, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
  18. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Check also Teuton Lt profile ;P
     
  19. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Vanilla tax is just a weird exception, ignore that :P I still hate it though. It's stupid.

    There are odd SWC taxes on LT profiles everywhere. Mostly seems random to me though.
     
  20. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    It's so that they share AVA.

    Would be nice if the linkable OS profiles were split out from the non-linkable Spec Sergeants. Just in terms of readability/new player accessibility.


    SWC generally has a formula, but CB freely admits that they hand-adjust SWC for balance. Similarly, certain weapons have a minimum SWC (Multi Snipers are minimum 1.5).
     
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