This to me is the bigger issue than the qhite noise arguments. If skills and states are not intrinsically tied there are all sorts of these interactions that come up.
It is more Me X results in Y that is not dependent on X and X is anything not just a skill. You Y is an effect of X and is depended on X. It is not the same.
Sure that's IJWs argument. But I'm arguing semantics here. Neither 'effect' nor 'result' necessarily requires an ongoing relationship. You need to make the existence or absence of that relationship clear separately. So this is functionality no different to your statement that I just quoted: "Me Y is an effect of X that is not dependent on X and X is anything* not just a skill. You X results in Y and is dependent on X." Saying states are not an effect of their skill is nonsense. Saying states don't continue to depend on their skill after the initial relationship makes sense, semantically. *except apparently White Noise.
To be fair, white noise (the thing on the ground) is not a skill nor state. Impersonation state can be entered without the skill. The state does not say it ends if the user removes the skill. The skill does not say it removes the state if the user loses the skill. The skill allows the user to enter the state, but once in that state, the skill is no longer relevant to continue that state. If have A, gain B, does not neccessarily mean lose A then lose B.
So to be clear. You are arguing that a dasyu pretending to be a naga and in the camouflage state is then at -6 to hit during the same order it reveals. Despite TO and Camo having NFB and despite all precedent that the camo is the skill that is active for the order and despite palankas rulings on that?
also please explain Holo2 marker state and ODD, and the existence of Holo3 if ODD and Holo2 do not NFB each other? this is of course if your argument that the State and the skill are independent
Still though. It has an deliberste and defined exception to the holo2 and odd interaction. Theres no reason for that if the state belinging to a skill is not intrinsically linked to the state. " This Level works exactly in the same way as the previous, but it lacks the Negative Feedback (NFB)Label, so it doesn't disconnect if the bearer possesses any other piece of Equipment with the same Label, or the player of the scenario applies any Hacking Program or any scenario special rule." Why does this exist if a state is not NFB when the skill is?
And what is it we do when things that run contrary to RAW never actually make it into FAQ's despite having been clearly ruled by some authority?
To answer the question of holo l2 and ODD. ODD is not optional so holo lvl2 the skill cant be used. While the holo skill is frankly useless, the state's activation effects mention having lvl2. While the skill is turned off, the user cannot gain the benefits of the state so shouldn't qualify for its activation and so can't be in that state.
My point is that you cannot enter the holoprojector state as the activation clause references the skill you cannot be using. So the state + ODD is fine because you cannot enter the state so that scenario cannot occur.
ODD having the obligatory status would not prevent you activating the "Optional" NFB Holoprojector. Otherwise a HD+ could never use a Hacking program with NFB, So Holo2 while ODD is NFB, but after that order the Holo2 marker state would then be able to benefit from the ODD, because according to @ijw and @psychoticstorm the marker state for Holo2 doesnt have NFB. For clarrity TO Camo deployed as Camo gets the benefits of TO's -6 6 while in a camo marker state Holo projector 2 gets the benefits of ODD while running around as 3 markers Cybermask+TO units get the benefit of TO while running around as IMP markers (-9 surprise shots lol) These are all blatantly ridiculous interactions, Do all Camo infiltrators really get the benefits of Camo and mimetism while running around in impersonation states HAHAHA
Ultimately the rules are written and the FAQs always clarrify that the skills and states with NFB are intrinsically linked. Be it the ruling that ODD and Surprise shot from Cybermask are not applicable for the same order Or that Mimetism and Limited Camo require a specific timing exception for having the two skills. The existance of Holoprojector 3 as a rule so that the Holo echo2 state can co-exist with ODD To argue that the State and the Skill do not both have NFB fundamentally goes against every ruling on this question we have seen
It only breaks with optional skills. You can't opt to deliberately turn on non-Optional Obligatory skills. So no you can't stack ODD and Holo-2. It also doesn't work with Cybermask because the skill remains active throughout (due to the nature of Supportware). It only really works with TO. Deploy as Camo, receive -6 Mods to hit during a Discover + Shoot. Honestly, while I agree with you that states are implicitly treated as effectively having NFB, it's not game breaking to treat this as a clarification rather than an exception. Rather it's just very confusing and game changing for how TO are commonly used.
If your in the holo2 marker state then ijw is arguing your odd is on Or if you are in the imp markerstate that your to is on
Well your ODD got turned off when you first activated the Holo 2. In the case of Cybermask and ODD the Cybermask skill continues to be active while in the IMP-2 state, continually suppressing the ODD. Arguably nothing continues to suppress the ODD in the case of Holo 2, so... maybe. Nevertheless you wouldn't be able to benefit from the Surprise Shot granted by Holo 2 and ODD at the same time. The Cybermask + ODD FAQ makes that clear. Honestly I'm completely confused at this point.
That's an effect of the skill, which has NFB. You're really going overboard on this mate. You need to relax a bit. The main point here is there is a problem with the clarity of how it's written, and it needs to be officially clarified somewhere that will stick around. Why are you disagreeing with the idea that rules should be BETTER WRITTEN?
But IJW and Storm argue that effects of NFB skills don't have NFB. Ergo the Holo Echo state doesn't have NFB, but everytime you make use of the Holo-projector skill NFB kicks in for that order. Actually our point is that it already works between the FAQ, Palanka's ruling and the implicit understanding that a state is a benefit of the associated skill and consequently restricted by NFB. Trying to make it work without Palanka's ruling and saying that 'states don't have NFB' opens up a massive can of worms and fundamentally changes how particular interactions work.
