that's why I was referring that like the attached MOD, the Camouflaged State is enabled by the Skill being Active. During the game, allows the user to be in the Camouflaged state. I'd be with you if it used "enter the Camouflaged state" instead of "be". As far as I can tell Camouflaged (the State) should deactivate when you turn of Camouflage L2 as it isn't legal to be in the State anymore.
Notwithstanding that RAW has been clarified by Palanka. You're saying it only works for TO troopers? Turn off TO, turn on Camo:2. NFB kicks in and " automatically cancels and deactivates" the skill. 'Cancels' strongly suggests that the effects of the skill (ie the state) would go as well.
That's an allowance of the Skill, not a restriction listed for the State. As far as I'm aware, all that would do is take the MOD for a revealed trooper from -6 to -3.
Should't the Skill matter more than the State here? We should agree that without the Camouflaged Skill you're not allowed to enter Camouflaged State. How is turning off the Camouflaged Skill different in your opinion? You're definitely losing the -3 MOD, I'm sure we agree on that. Now what I'm curious about is the reasoning why another Effect, the ability to be in Camouflaged State, should not disappear when turning the Skill off.
The TO state is clearly an effect of the TO skill, and you can't benefit from the effects of 2 NFB skills in the same order, so to benefit from the -3 from Camo:2 the TO state must go. IE the trooper would be revealed at the start of the order.
To both of you - please compare to the IMP Skills and States. Your arguments would mean that Impersonators instantly lose IMP state because the Skills don't include a 'allows the user to be in' clause. Again, nothing in the Camoflauged State says that it's cancelled for turning off Camouflage, and nothing in the Camouflage Skill says that turning it off cancels the Camouflaged State.
I’m not turning TO off though. I’m saying I turn Camo:2 on. I just activated a second optional NFB skill, all the effects of the previous skill are cancelled. I cant use any of the benefits of the previous skill.
For reference, I'm not saying that it shouldn't work that way for game purposes, but to do so it would need to be added to the FAQ as the old forums (and therefore any old forum rulings) are due to be turned off at some point in the next few months.
It’s not a cancellation clause: NFB trumps it. See our previous arguments around White Noise. Edit: thinking about this some more you’re saying that you can stay in a TO state but benefit from Camo:2 ie be -3 to hit (because I’ve legally optionally activated Camo:2 but not triggered a cancellation clause for the TO state). But this means that the reverse is true: you’re also arguing that a model with TO could be in a Camo state but benefit from TO ie be -6 to hit.
Nfb trumps the skill, not the state. And look at limited camo. It doesn't say the model is allowed to be in camoflagued state. Does this mean he can't as it doesn't have that wording like camo or TO camo?
@ijw @kinginyellow Optional exists on the same level as Fire Sensitivity and NFB. The problem is that getting hit by Fire or triggering a NFB condition automatically includes a scenario where the State is canceled and can't be reapplied thereafter. Looking for a similar case where turning a Skill off would boots you out of a correlated State... I'm having trouble finding one. Sapper for instance explicitly mentions it allows you to enter Foxhole state, not to be in it. But I think I found something. If the correlating Marker State doesn't turn off with the Skill, what stops a TO Camo troop from also activating Camouflaged State? It's not a Skill so doesn't deactivate TO according to your reasoning. As far as I can tell this wouldn't do much beyond stacking the Effects of Camo and TO Camo to add a -9 to all Discover Rolls. Cancelling either of them results in the Trooper being placed on the table anyway (although I'm pretty sure something breaks within the rules when you stack Camo Marker States).
Nothing stops a trooper with the TO Camouflage Skill from activating Camouflaged State, but there's nothing in the TO Skill and Camo State that overlap. The Skills apply BS Attack MODs (i.e. only matters for a revealed trooper), the States apply Discover MODs. You can't have both TO Camouflaged State and Camouflaged State at the same time, because activating one triggers the cancellation clauses of the other, so the Discover MODs can never stack.
@ijw is correct and it is the same thing I said, State is not the same thing as the skill, and loosing the skill is not a cancellation clause for the state. I think it needs to be FAQed.
Where do you trigger the cancellation clauses? Weirdly enough I am very certain you yourself pointed out to me that Activating Camo is explicitly not a Skill some time ago. During their Active Turn, troopers with CH: Camouflage may revert to the Camouflaged state by expending one Entire Order while outside enemy LoF. You count as Activated and have to spend an Order, the hallmarks of a Skill, but not mentioned to be one and still triggers AROs anyway. It has Line of Fire (LoF) to a trooper being activated by the Active Player. An enemy trooper activates within its Zone of Control (ZC). To cancel the existing TO Camo State it would have meet this requirement: The TO Camouflaged trooper declares a Skill other than Cautious Movement or a Short Movement Skill that does not require a Roll (except Alert). However we're not declaring Camouflage as a Long Skill, or any Skill at all RAW. Short reminder this isn't about who is right or wrong. I've simply been using this since forever and if I have been cheating I'd like to be sure I was. Before today it has never occured to me you might possibly unable NOT to turn of Camo Marker States voluntarily. The problem is the Skill establishes a correlation to the state by explicitly stating "you are allowed to be in Camo". And I can't logically reproduce that Camo turns off TO Camo if the State is not dependant on the Skill being active.
Not a specific named Skill. It's still an Entire Order Skill, as per the text you've just quoted. Again, ENTIRE ORDER. An (EDIT: unnamed) Entire Order Skill is neither the Cautious Movement Entire Order Skill nor a Short Movement Skill.
As has already been covered, this would mean that Impersonators would instantly lose IMP state, because the IMP Skills don't have an equivalent clause,
That would be interpretation. If you want to interpret that part in be my guest. I for one would love if there was an Entire Order Skill for regaining every single Marker State. But there isn't and regaining Marker State is not a Skill. It's not called a Skill or in any Skill list. Circumstancial evidence suggests it is, but Activating a trooper triggers AROs just fine and it works inside the rule framework without absolutely being required to be one. I didn't make the rules and can't help if they break on occasion. I just want to use them as much as possible. And right now you're telling me not to interpret stuff while you're apparently playing by different rules. That's somewhat unhelpful and I know this is not your intention, because you most certainly care a lot about this game the rules and how things work. In this case though something doesn't fit, and it's a bit much to ask to believe whatever you say, just because you say so.
'Entire Order' is a type of Skill, like Short Skill or Short Movement Skill. http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Skills
