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Operation Wildfire

Discussion in 'News' started by chaos11, Jun 26, 2019.

  1. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Lets say ODD is now costed how you want, it scales with Bs or ARM or W/STR or S or whatever you want.

    The Omega pays ~5 points for it currently.

    How much should he pay? in your eyes. give me your best estimate. what would be balanced?
     
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  2. SpectralOwl

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    Remember that each battle Ariadna fights represents a much larger percentage of their overall force. A single Spetznaz, Scout or Vet Kazak likely represents similar investment in training to an elite like the Swiss or Aquila, for a good bit less effectivess, and from a smaller pool of population to boot. Every one of those pieces Ariadna throws into the meat grinder for favourable trades is a loss for them in the long run without substantial value from the objective.
     
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  3. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

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    For Vanilla Aleph it wasn't too crazy. Most just saw it as a better optimized CA (which for certain units in N2 it was). Steel Phalanx on the other hand was a woah moment. They were the cool and powerful kids on the block when they dropped and were that way for a while. However, as we got more updates for previous sectorials through N3 and the introduction of new ones SP was evened out. OSS wasn't received with the same fan fair as SP when it came out.
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I don't really care to answer your question directly, as it hinges on too many factors. My point remains - something that makes it harder to win FtF rolls is better on a trooper with an extra wound, or more armor, and so on. Essentially something like ODD should be priced according to how much more durable it makes the bearer, and since you have to win more FtF rolls, on average, to take out a 4 ARM BS 14 HI than a 3 ARM BS 12 MI Reverend Moira, it should cost more on the Epsilon. Now, a Moira isn't exactly half as durable because there's plenty of effects that can take them out just as fast, like a single flamethrower template or a hit from a missile launcher. In theory, of course, one combi rifle burst could take them both out in one go. However, if the Epsilon gained twice as much from some ability than a Moira, that ability should cost twice as much as it does for the Moira. Costing should be, essentially, the product of a trooper's offense and their durability. Offense, however, is not as simple as "what is their BS and what guns do they have," since the order system ties into offense fairly directly, and the ability to achieve mission objectives is really another form of offense. BS is also a stat that helps offense *and* defense, so should be costed appropriately. ODD is an ability that helps both offense and defense in many circumstances, by debuffing enemy BS, and isn't a purely defensive ability.
     
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  5. epsilon

    epsilon Member

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    Well here we returned to the statement that armor has a very strange pricing.
    It does not matter whether a model has high arm odd or not, crit ignores it,you also can low roll arm.
    So in my opinion, debaffing skill should have relatively higher cost than arm. Cos you cannot damage the thing which you cannot hit.
     
  6. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    The powercreep caught up to them.
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It's still a bad hacker without a camo state that's about as nutritious to the ubiquitous KHDs out there as breakfast cereals.

    Yes, it's 15 points. So what? Kappa HD + Kappa is 27/0.5, Alguacile HD + Alguacile is 28/0.5. It's not even a better HD, like the one Nox get at no extra cost for it, or like what a Ghulam Doctor gets at no extra cost and no separate AVA.

    This is literally a storm in a tea cup, you two.
     
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  8. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes you want a hacker for support programs and nothing more. This dude is the best for that in all the game, and having access to the standard remotes and also to dakinis, 15 points to get a dakini hmg marksmanship ia a good deal. Remember that this is a vanilla army, so no linkteams, and in that scenario, being cheap is the best

    About the ODD IP, not only is gonna be played, is going to send to the exposition shelves the S5 IP. Is something that can bring almost as much havoc as the hac tao, but by 20 points less. Yes, it doesn't have the TO state, kinematics, has -1 ARM and -3 BTS. But that doesn't cost as much as 20 points, not until now
     
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  9. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    The Posthumans weren't that good initially, and they are very important nowadays in any competitive Alpeh list.
     
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  10. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    I think you guys are discarding the Gamma too hearly. There is only 10 pts difference and the Gamma can push hard through Sat zones and will crush MSV2+ ARO pieces harder. Larger base now means that he is harder to circle and S5 means also that he can walk over sceneries the Omega can't. And, for now, the Gamma is the only one bringing an effective anti-TAG and antimaterial weapon. He is good in ARO and in active. So, yes, don't underestimate the big guy.
     
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  11. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I agree on most accounts, on this I do not: sure, the unit getting "double" the benefit needs to cost more, but never more than double, and not really double than the other (because 2 Moiras > 1 unit x2 as durable as a Moira: the 2 Moiras give a 2nd regular order, and can be in two places at once).

    For me the sweet spot here would be for that unit to cost 60-75% more than the ones performing as half of it, but the exact % varies depeding on available profiles, value of an order, etc...

    Uufff.. Posthumans were a mess, mostly because: no netrod => Isolate the Active Proxy to neuter ALL bodies; each body taking 1 slot (instead of being all 1 single slot); increase cost (about 4 points per); only Mk1, Mk2 and Mk3 (and the Mk3 was seen as much as it is seen today); Mk2 unable to Surprise Shot (used to lose the marker state when the Active Proxy marker got assigned to her)...

    The posthumans main problem was, at least for me, the convoluted rules. The simplification was great, but now they are seen as a must have in any Aleph/OSS list, and an unfair advantage from the other players point of view (too cheap and siposable for what they do); granted this "too good" status comes mainly from the Mk5 FO and the Mk4 HMG/HRL, while the Mk2 stays where it always did: half price Dasyu.
     
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  12. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Exactly, the right numbers are not easily determined, but I agree with the general notion that pieces of equipment should not have an absolute point value across all factions and models.

    As for the new release, I'm not too hyped about it at this point. Some of the models are nice, but I'd really with CB tried something genuinely new with new factions instead of making them optimised versions of existing stuff. O-12 would have been a great opportunity to explore a non-lethal approach.
     
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  13. harl3quin

    harl3quin Active Member

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    Awesome army! would love to see these on the table :D
    Fear for all the camo tokens and cc warbands though.
    Those will rip through the army easy.
    Lack of linked teams and sixth sense is hurting. I'm happy they are lean, but they are hella vulnerable
     
  14. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Its a great hacker if all you need is a supportware / annyoing possible AROs against occasional targets walking into repeaters (SuiJuan/Sphinx running around your (hidden) Fugazis) or Hack Transport / U-Turn.

    Yes if you want to hack enemy / walk midf-field you are probably dead meat, but then why you didn't take something better ?

    And if enemy KHD want to really spend orders to run after that unit it's only better (and if he uses your repeaters you have a chance for a multiple ARO if you find it advantagues).

    If I had my Asura forced to hack every possible Celestial Guard/ Zanschi due to their annoying AROs it's already a win for YuJing player. (yes I had my Asura kill Kanren in ARO and then got herself Blackouted by Celestial Guard xD)

    O12 makes Fusilier HD looks expensive. Especially now when you throw SMG which can act as secondary/tertiary "can opener" and it even cost less than previously "cheapest" HD options.

    Not to mention that obviously he unlocks all those nice REMs for cheapest price in game atm. So yea....
     
  15. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Oh sorry, I still have a MO in mind for which this is 34/0.5 and no links for HD xD (no SMG for anyone too).
    Oh yea, but OS have +2 CC xD
     
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  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Keep dying on that mole hill of yours, you've really managed to pick out the most non-issue and least optimized unit of the bunch. It's a good profile, but it's also not got very good REMs to buff. Yeah, I just called Dakini "not very good", deal with it. I find TR HMGs better attack pieces outside of OSS and O-12 doesn't seem to have any Rui Shi, Rudra or Bulleteer equivalents. So what that they can have a slightly cheaper HD? And if you think a unit that's 20% more expensive than a Fusilier, who's primary quality is the low price, makes Fusiliers bad by comparison then I don't know what the hell kind of game you're expecting to play.
     
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  17. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    In the end is just: they do this, which is not broken, but they do it cheaper. And that is for the hacker, the MSV2, the ODD IP, the skirmisher, the AD character... And maybe in more other units.
     
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  18. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

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    We're still not seeing the full picture. For now every 2-3 points shaved off here or there are made up by Kappas being more expensive for no immediate bonus (even if they do show how poorly priced Order Sergeants are right now).

    We don't know what weaknesses are built into O12 lineup, we don't know how the future sectorial - and fireteams - will look, we don't know what else they'll be able to bring in terms of hackers, Specialists in general, heavy weapons, camo, etc. We're basically splitting hairs here.
     
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  19. Modock

    Modock Well-Known Member

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    15 points for a 14 WIP HD is crazy good. "Just" perfecty optimized profile...now imagine a whole army of those which looks like O-12 probably will be. Sounds OP to me.
     
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  20. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    FTFY

    The Omega unit seems rightly costed. However the Betatrooper is hilarious, it doesn't pay enough points for all the skills it has despite having no disadvantage to justify the drop in cos and It gets the best of REMs while not suffering any of REM drawbacks (those Hyperdinamics are cheeky). A unit ridiculously optimized, furthermore enjoying an unjustified discounted price; this unit is an allegory to powercreep and a threat to game balance.
     
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