Open vs. Closed Information: Camo and Deployment

Incorrect.

Pass fail and critical for rolls are absolutely open information.

The outcome of a roll must always be disclosed

 

You can have the TO verify things if it seems fishy to you. Like, say, someone's retreat threshold.

 

Sorta. I'll be honest, I have deliberately been avoiding giving it too much thought, but I feel there are a lot of ways the system could be abused, and nobody would be the wiser. The ultimate result would probably be the removal of hidden information, so let's not go there. :)

 

Well, we've got to, since we had what happened in the last Euro championships.

If the price of hidden information is that we have to let cheaters prey upon us, then we should get rid of it. However, we have TO's for this kind of thing in competitive play (which is the only place it matters).

 

I disagree. At the end of the day if you have a negative play experience with a gamer you have the right to refuse to play them. Once a gamer is outed as a cheater, they'll find they're unwelcome at organized play or pickup Games. My area has placed hard bans on certain members of the community (Not infinity) because of repeated suspect play. These players are not able to participate in most of our organized tournaments and are not welcome at weekly pickup gaming.

Frankly the only thing I'm concerned with is facing more than a dozen camo markers with TAK - and my concern isn't about cheating - that camo marker either is or is not a model, until I know for certain I should assume it is the worst case option (which may be a model, mine or emauler depending on what I'm doing) - my concern is simply that my opponents who run a dozen camo markers don't project to me that they have the organizational skills necessary to keep their markers straight 30 minutes into the game.

If you're worried about malicious play your community is doing it wrong and maybe needs to consider cleansing your player base...

 

@clever handle I ran an 11 camo token list in USARF last weekend, I used numbered camo tokens and kept a written record of what was what. My opponent never asked for deeper verification but I figured I should make everything precise enough so they could be sure I wasn't trying to pull a fast one.

 

I know this is not going to be a popular opinion but I don't like any hidden information as that information will become less and less hidden as games continue and create unfair advantages. Here is a "hypothetical" example. Here I am playing Haqq when the guy at the table next to me spends his LT order and because I have ears I now know who his LT is... next match I wind up fighting him and I have Fidays... as well as a unfair advantage vs this opponent.

Another example involves a game running late and other players already done with there match watching the last game play out...now know all sorts of things about lists. There are ways to try and protect yourself, I mean talk of bringing models you don't have in a list just to throw off someone who might look is not new or anything.

 

I agree. I usually use paper lists and camo markers with numbers. If I deploy it, I write it down on the list. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask your opponent about such record keeping after the game. It's pretty easy to do, there should be no excuses, particularly since I KNOW I get confused with that many markers, and I try to double check my work.

I also write down the numbers of models that have special skills, like paramedics, in a group of similar models, like say a PanO Fusie Paramedic. For models with multiples I mark the back of the base with a number.

I also note down who the LT is in the event that I go into LoL.

So the camo shell game, multiple model shell game, and who's the LT are all places where I think less scrupulous players could cheat, and it would be difficult to catch them in-game.

 

As someone who played against this list, I can say two things made it clear that @Hecaton was on the up and up (in addition to the fact he is a stand up guy in general):

1: he checked his list frequently, and was consistent on the numbering throughout.

2: when something uncamoed, he gave full open information details instead of just saying "its a foxtrot".

I think we should make this combo of clear numbering on the marker, declaration of the model specifics, and the clearly labeled list the standard, especially for high camo lists. I never worried he was pulling a fast one essentially because he was too organized.

 

It is the standard.

The fact that in casual games we trust our opponents and many people (me included) just roll with it and don't bother doing the bookkeeping (although I tend to max out at 7 Markers) is laziness. It's much the same as not having courtesy lists in casual settings: most people don't care, but you're not meeting the standard due to laziness.

 

Well, even in competitive play, I see some people make the effort and others not. I agree a big issue is laziness, but there are others that just expect their opponents to know, and indeed also some small risk that a player is trying to eke out a little advantage by not mentioning all the details. If we as a community push for the standard level of clarity (and require it of ourselves even in casual settings) I think you end up with better play.

 

Then ask. And if they can't prove it is what is is, then clearly it's whatever option is most advantageous to you. Sooner or later they'll come round to doing their bookkeeping.

 

Sure, that is a good way to push for that standard of clarity.

 

I cant say for sure Col, but for my Japanese-bought iPhone on its Japanese network I’m unable to turn off the shutter sound.