Thought it would be obvious I'm talking about Vanilla, apologies. The only thing you'd miss out on is ava2 Noctifers, and you'd gain access to a lot of very relevant units for that playstyle. You want vets, you'd have access to 17 other vet profiles... If you're not taking a fireteam why on earth restrict yourself to Onyx?
You can do a similar list in Vanilla. However, the vanilla has only 2 fraaktas and 1 noctifier, which is a big deal because you want to have both Nocti LT and missile.
Ohhh I get you - Noc LT is the only troop in CA that can trigger LoL in your first turn, aside from Annie who's too expensive for a Sphinx list. It's a crazy concept for Onyx, interested to hear how it's played in your experience.
Yes, the list hides it's true strenght from enemy alpha strike and exploits any weakness in enemy deployment. Sphinx, Fraaktas and Rasyat are very good at that.
I am super curious about this, but the fact that a Sphynx, a Noc LT + ML = 4.5 SWC is just so hard. At that point you cannot even add some more interesting pieces like a MSR Malignos, a Spitfire Fraacta... The SWC tax on the Noc LT is just so tough to swallow.
MSR Malignos is a trap. Although Mimetism-6 and Hidden Deployment+Infil is good, it is obscenely expensive and it is fragile to midfield pieces with DTWs and warbands, both of which can reach your expensive as balls Sniper a little easier. On the other hand, if for some reason the table has an impossible to reach place where you can place the Malignos he will be a god of AROing. I've had maybe one or two games where this happened and he cinched the victory hard. I would still avoid taking one thought. Paying 1 SWC for a lieutenant is slightly more palatable when you remember Onyx can have linked plasma rifles and/or MULTI-Marksmen rifles that can then punch as hard as an SWC weapon without costing as much as one.
You are missing the point that we are talking about the concept of a mostly Hidden list with the ideia of entering LoL turn one. Not a regular list with linked plasma unidron, for example. So the ideia is to max HD or AD troops. As a concept it is interesting.
This is a tangent to a tangent, but - I've been experimenting with the MSR Malignos as a notcitifier alternative recently, although in vanilla rather than Onyx. Pleasantly surprised with the results. It never uses infiltration particularly aggressively but then it doesn't need to; infiltration troops with MSRs functionally get the rule for free thanks to the massive points break they got between editions, so I'm pretty comfortable having it hang out on extreme flanks in high places often not too far from my own DZ. The main points of value it has over the noctifier apart from being able to maybe make use of some space your opponent couldn't contain an ARO piece (sniper towers outside deployments are a little common where I am locally) are that there's a good case for Regeneration being better than Dogged in a lot of cases, and being able to be B2 in active turn which opens up a long-range active turn role for it that would be much tougher to pursue with a noctifier. Overall it's not an every game piece (but neither is a Noct), but it's also not a trap like it was in N3 with its extreme points cost.
I'd be interested to hear more about players' evaluation of Nourkias as being massively overrated. (I don't think the Mushashi comparison is valid btw.) Solo Nourk trades on cybermask to make contact and protheion to keep the train rolling, can contribute to an aggressive trinity network on the side, has native B2 that can't be NBW'd, NCO and is a great button pusher once he's cleared an area out. For his impact and role as primary attack piece, I actually think he's modestly priced, especially in Onyx where you have access to super-cheap regular orders generators and a highly points efficient defensive core fireteam. Have people had bad experiences with him? Run into hard counters? I'm interested because he's currently my favourite rambo piece in Infinity and I'm having a hard time writing Onyx lists without the chap in.
In my last game my opponent played Onyx and i played JSA. He tried and wasted his whole first turn to eliminate my Ryuken 9 in suppressive fire. We are both quite inexpierienced but dealing with that -12 malus the Ryuken imposes in supp fire and cover with a list that was completly without any MSV was brutal. In the end he was desperate since my Ryuken destroyed his Xeodrons, he cybermasked Nourkias who was already in NWI and charged just to get killed by a mine as the Ryuken made both his armor rolls on 13 against monofilament. To be honest the Ryuken 9 was just so nasty it was almost ridiculous. But coming to the Point: I had really great respect for Nourkias because of his ability to steamroll once fed thorugh protheion. The trick might be to get him fed first, once you accompished that he is an absolute beast. The haris might be a trap as he can´t cybermask in there and it lacks long range firepower. What keeps me from getting involved with Onyx that it isn´t exactly what i had hoped for (EI Aspects in Sectorials Please) and i already have enough forces that i play to seldom^^
Probably would have gone very differently if your opponent had used the E/M CCW, as it would have been 4 DAM15 rolls against half BTS! The Vorpal weapon is purely for TAGs and the occasional boomerang shot!
Sounds like he used the wrong tool for the job with the Xeos, instead of Nourk, as well as the wrong weapon. I think he's actively worse in a haris. Cybermask with nco and then walk up all friendly. Even if her mine gets to trigger he'll protheion her to cancel it. Having said all that, he has to be super careful against JSA; so many brutal CC pieces in that roster.
As an aside: Mines are shock, and with the precedence from Doctor and Shock at the same time that got changed from N3 to N4, the straight-to-dead effect shouldn't get cancelled from gaining a Power-Up at the same time, so you'd better make sure to not gamble on face-tanking a mine with a Samaritan (or Caliban) and only do it using the named Protheion users (also avoid monofilament!) Edit: ooops, missed Shock Immunity on Samaritans in the special skill pasta
So in full fairness the really relevant distinction here is that I'm chiefly a vanilla player, not an Onyx player. This colours my opinion of him because his unique value proposition (deadly protheion melee expert with access to a marker state) isn't unique in vanilla - he's both competing directly with things like the caliban and also indirectly with other melee experts who can leverage smoke and white noise available in vanilla to close without needing that marker state. In this context, where there are plentiful daturazi around to throw smoke, I'd rarely take Nourkias over e.g. the Umbra Samaritan Hacker, who clocks in at a whopping 8pts cheaper and only loses out on some nice-but-niche rules (bioimmunity on an ARM2 BTS3 model, NCO in a faction with aspects etc - obviously not the same in Onyx where it's more useful) and has worse but still absolutely outstanding melee, and in exchange gains the full suite of proper hacking programs including spotlight (very relevant in any mission with classifieds) while not giving up trinity, and has the much more useful plasma carbine (which is a highly underrated gun and the ability to threaten deadly impact template hits from super jumping angles has netted me cheeky kills on the regular). So while my experiences with and against Nourkias are that he's one-dimensional, really excelling in melee but paying a lot both in points and lost flexibility just for a marker state (which can't be combined with move+dodge shenanigans for 10" movement), the extra capabilities of the samaritan mean it's much more flexible, able to still perform in melee but also get template kills at range or even just contribute to a hacking ARO game - or an offensive hacking game while he moves up the board. Basically: I've never had a game where the Samaritan has done nothing, but I've certainly seen games where Nourkias has done nothing. In Onyx, virtually none of this rationale holds up the same way, so the things Nourkias can do are relatively much more valuable and his competition is more limited. Getting melee up the board under its own power and without needing smoke in Onyx is fantastic, so I understand his appeal.
Thanks Robert, you've given me a lot to think about the Samaritan in vanilla. Oblivion, spotlight and a superjump-carbine are strong upgrades for sure. Sounds like you're using him for much more than protheion munching. I tend to run Nourk as a pure predator, then button pushing with a full belly. I'm kinda with you - Nourk gets so much play in Onyx because he's a top-shelf melee-protheion monster with added utility, and that's such a great fit for the sectorial. His point cost, combined with some cheap R/Ime/Ikadron goodness, leaves you plenty of points for your choice of Noctifers, Fraactas, Overdrons, plasniper cores, etc. And Onyx is sorely lacking in CC generally. To be honest, I rarely if ever take him in vanilla. Do you not miss cybermask at all though? The approach to your first victim is always the point of highest risk in my experience with samaritans, and marker state makes it far simpler. But not only that - for hacking defence on the reactive, and for guided, remasking is so strong.
@Time Bandit the marker state is definitely a good thing, but higher ground is so much better. MOV4* prone entire order superjump is your friend here. Remember that you can premeasure move distances after you have declared the move order. * (6+2)/2 = 4
Not too often. Absolutely those are all valid points about the utility of marker states, but playing in vanilla affords a plethora of smoke, fire support and 6-6 gribblies to assist with the gap-closing, and the Samaritan is rarely the list's apex predator (not least thanks to its reduced cost relative to Nourkias) to boot. Here's a sample vanilla list I've run using the Samaritan - he adds a very versatile independent element but he's not the list's fulcrum. That said, I do intend to try something like this with Nourkias as well, since I have an event coming up that's heavy on HVT murder and light on classifieds. The Jabberwocky ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 9 1 2 UMBRA SAMARITAN (Hacker, Hacking Device [UPGRADE: Trinity]) Plasma Carbine, Flash Pulse ( ) / Pistol, Vorpal CC Weapon, DA CC Weapon. (0.5 | 39) CHARONTID (Lieutenant, Hacker, Hacking Device Plus [UPGRADE: (+1 Damage)]) Plasma Rifle, Nanopulser ( ) / Heavy Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0.5 | 63) LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 8) Bit (Hacker], Killer Hacking Device [UPGRADE: Oblivion]) Submachine Gun, Pitcher ( | Deployable Repeater]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 21) KISS! Adhesive Launcher, Pitcher(+1B) ( | Deployable Repeater) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 6) DĀTURAZI Chain Rifle(+1B), Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Heavy Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14) DĀTURAZI Chain Rifle(+1B), Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Heavy Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14) ÍMETRON . (0 | 4) R-DRONE Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) R-DRONE Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) T-DRONE Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 18) GROUP 2 4 2 2 RAICHO MULTI Heavy Machine Gun, Heavy Rocket Launcher / CC Weapon. (1.5 | 73) RAICHO PILOT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Assault Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 0) DĀTURAZI Chain Rifle(+1B), Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Heavy Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14) TAIGHA Chain-colt / AP + Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 5) IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) Light Flamethrower(+1B), Flash Pulse / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 9) ÍMETRON . (0 | 4) 5.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
