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Onyx continuing to get screwed by ITS XI

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by Hecaton, Oct 10, 2019.

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  1. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Listen man, I've been to the YJ forum. It'd find something to complain about if a sectorial came with free handjobs.
     
  2. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Well, then we're splitting definitional hairs. From where I'm standing, Onyx finding it difficult-but-not-impossible to score liaison officer points is a matter of asymmetry - or perhaps 'acceptable imbalance' since It's also much better at some scenarios than other factions, and has enough unique elements going for it that it's a good overall faction and well within tolerances for a balanced ('fair'? 'equitable'? 'fun'?) overall experience.
     
  3. Bellyflop

    Bellyflop Well-Known Member

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    Ok Thanos, then go play chess.
     
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  4. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Roflmao! Touché. :joy:
    Can’t say I disagree, especially when I was shouted down by people constantly trying to convince me that the Zuyong is overpriced. :flushed:
     
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  5. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

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    Guys, let's be careful and not let the thread devolve into namecalling and being uncivil. If you cannot contribute something useful for the talk, it may be better to not post at all.

    I do agree with this
    A whole lot. I feel like ITS doesn't really 'screw' Onyx at all. Sure, there are some missions they may have difficulty scoring, but I don't think there's a sectorial who fares well in every single ITS mission, to be honest. If you want an army that can play any ITS mission well, you need to go vanilla, and that's a good thing. Vanilla armies being versatile to their sectorials being specialized is something I really enjoy and would like if the game continued like this.
     
  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    "Onyx OP so this ITS rule should hurt them more"? Really? Onyx is firmly middle-of-the-road as far as factions go. Let's not forget that the rule synergizes super well with what OSS/ALEPH were running anyway...

    Asymmetry is different from imbalanced; asymmetry implies that different factions approach problems in different ways, imbalance implies that different factions have different levels of ability to score points/win games. This is the latter.


    You get that upset when your game is balanced? Really?
     
  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No, it's not, because overall vanilla factions tend to be more powerful than sectorials. "Taking a sectorial should be a false choice and vanilla should be superior" is an attitude that I see with a decent amount of frequency in the Infinity community, and I can't say I particularly like it.
     
  8. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I really like how a thread which started as a misreading of the rules was somehow screwing onyx, to move the goal posts that even though you literally only need one model to be a liason officer, somehow not being able to take four is a large disadvantage?
     
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  9. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Have you considered that many players find Sectorials a simpler army to play/harder army to deal with. So from the average player's perspective Sectorials are often considered too good. You'll often see people suggesting changes to Sectorials/fireteams/etc as a result. Of course for many players as they develop skills and come to understand more about how to deal with the tools that Sectorials rely on and their value drops. Which is something I would argue we saw with the breakdown of the two 'tiers' of competitive play at the Interplanetario this year. There was vanilla and Sectorial on both sides but the Masters over represented Vanilla and the others favored Sectorial play.
     
  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Nobody said anything about not being able to take four, that would be a lie.
     
  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yes, I've considered it. Not really relevant to what we're discussing here.
     
  12. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    You brought up the idea that people are trying to oppress Sectorial play. If you'd prefer not to discuss the potential links between the opinions of a portion of the population and your perception of the games trajectory thats fine but from where I'm sitting they look pretty relevant.
     
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  13. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    You're a really weird guy sometimes, Hecaton.

    (I'm on a new phone atm, might jump back when I'm not trying to wrestle with this new keyboard program)
     
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  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Let's be more precise - there are people who think that vanilla is the "real" way to play Infinity and that Sectorials *should* be weaker.

    Whether or not players at a certain experience level perceive sectorials to be more powerful doesn't really affect my point, which is about players saying what the power levels *should* be (i.e. not balanced).
     
    Dragonstriker likes this.
  15. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    Slow reply, but in my estimation *un*balanced play is what promotes “WAAC”.
     
    #55 Dragonstriker, Oct 26, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2019
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  16. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Kind of off topic but WAAC is how people should play.
    Unless "waac" involves cheating, anyone who is not playing waac is just trolling the other players.
     
  17. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    Yeah, I agree. Thus the scare quotes around WAAC. Many people equate WAAC with being a prick; it shouldn’t be.
     
  18. SpectralOwl

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    It's a requirement for a tournament with integrity that the players try their hardest to win to ensure that the points are properly distributed by skill/luck. It's up to the game designers to ensure that the range of competitive strategies is wide and enjoyable enough that the game can be both competitive and fun. I consider much of ITS (and 90% of WH40K) to be a rather poor example of this while N3 in general is amazingly good; in a straight-up kill-em-all match or area control scenario the balancing is so effective that unit optimisation is less of a factor than either player skill or luck, or even in many cases terrain layout.

    However, ITS' focus on specific arbitrarily-assigned attributes like Specialists, Classification or Type and the fact that some scenarios require an absurd amount of Orders or order efficiency to complete while others reward individual unit resilience make it rather unbalanced much of the time. In this specific situation Onyx got the short end of the stick with LO, but where Concilium Watch is available CA and its Sectorials get a discounted Doc/Engi/Journo combo while (almost) everyone else has to cram in a 3pt Irregular troop if they want the points, which is infuriating if you like playing single combat group lists (or have to with the LI extra) which are already strapped for Orders and have better things to spend Command Tokens on. We shouldn't be asking for 60 different scenario balance fixes with each new season, just objectives with less arbitrary requirements all around, it would be a big help to improving viability for many units or factions. Just take a look at Firefight lists; being encouraged to not bring 50%+ Specialists lets so many models which wouldn't see the light of day under ordinary circumstances shine.

    As for the Vanilla vs. Sectorials oppression- Biotechvore exists. Vanilla will never defeat the Fireteam:Core Master Race while walls of face-eating nanites still roam the earth for no good reason.
     
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  19. Bellyflop

    Bellyflop Well-Known Member

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  20. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    It started as an accusation made by butthurt neckbeards of the 40k community with frail ego's.
    The types who'd bring a fully painted fluff army to a tournament, and couldn't handle the fact that they got demolished. They are absolutely insufferable.
     
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