If nothing to else, MA3 looks to be costed more competitively than 6 points in CC, even not taking into account Stealth and V:Courage.
You're still not presenting with a coherent argument for why my suggestion is wrong. We are still talking about a very, very, tiny cost on all affected profiles From the above it seems like your actual argument is that the Swiss Guard pays too much for its extra point of BS. We are talking about a difference in gear that is worth roughly 3 points - where the difference in CC value amounts to close enough to 1 point that it doesn't matter if it's rounded up or down. Would you honestly say that a Hac Tao's niche CC ability is worth an estimated 5 points (DA CCW, CC attribute, and Surprise Attack)? For those once every ten games orders you'd consider it a fair price to pay every single time you get that? I'm still not arguing removing all of those 5 points, by the way.
The Swiss also pays more points for his TO since Camo Skill's point cost scales with higher BS (according to what we know about Mimetism). So while your argument the Hac Tao pays a lot of points for his CC Upgrades over the Swiss has merit, the Swiss already pays for CC15 and a AP CCW himself, an Upgrade that is almost entirely useless. The Hac Tao pays some extra points to get his CC to useful levels as part of his package deal. On the Profiles that compare directly (HMG & AHD) you trade 1 BS for 1 WIP, 4 CC, DA CCW and Nanopulser. Along with the Missing LSG on the ML, the extra XO and KHD options there are areas where both troops don't directly compare anymore. What I'm saying is you can't always jumpt to the conclusion that for instance more CC and versatility is a bad trade vs more BS. The problem is not unique to CC, it also exists for ARM, PH, multiple BS weapons etc. If you take Zuyong vs Orcs or TOFOs vs Konstantinos you'll notice their problem spans over a variety of stats. To get back at your question no I don't think the Hac Tao's investment in CC is worthwhile. An optimized Profile would have PH12, CC14 and a Knife (assuming that is the bare minimum for HI), but the same goes for the Swiss. What I do think is worthwhile are both troops considering their whole kit within their Faction or even compared in a vacuum. They are severly bloated but have a lot to show for it, which ultimately ends up being fine for both of them imho. For Zhanshi and OS vs Keisotsu and Fusiliers I'd completely agree. They pay a lot of points for CC with no redeeming gear options or Skills. Both of them have to be compensated on different spots in their respective Faction/Sectorial to end up worthwhile. Zhanshi for instance get somewhat offset by the existence of Kuang Shi and hopefully will get mixed links to make them attractive in a Sectorial, it doesn't really help that theyhad to compete with Keisotsu until very recently, but on paper they have merit now (for the lack of competition).
A bit off-topic, but I would say there's an argument that Cautious Movement into B2B never does anything that simple Move with a model with Stealth can accomplish. But either way, if you have 2 orders to spend on going into melee and removing that Mutt, it's interesting option.
This does not take into account other, relevant variables: CC weapons the troop has is an obvious one, and the state of the other similar troops is the other (that is, if every troop who has CC 14+ gets those values rescaled to that table, how would the end result look like? If, in the end, Fusiliers and Dakinis/Unidrons are the only "basic" troops with CC less that 13, we have changed almost nothing... A scale is, in the end, a scale). Plus, having more than 1 wound, a marker state, an ARM value of 4+, a PH value of 14+, etc... are things that affect how effective and risky is to go into melee. Certainly, the problem comes from 1 BS point costing the same as 1 WP point, and all costs scaling linearly and without regards for the type of troop they are "mounted" on.
Strictly mechanically, you could Cautious Move to the front arch of a model without triggering an ARO. This is due to how LOF works when Engaged and the special permission to Cautious Move into Base to Base contact with the enemy. The case of Cautious Moving into Base to Base in the "wrong" arch isn't handled after that permission has been given. It's counter-intuitive and anyone who hasn't delved way, way, too deep in the rules debates are probably going to argue with you if you try it.
@Mahtamori That's curious. Aside from rules in Cautious Movement and Stealth sections, is there anything else I must read before trying to figure out what's going on? I remember there was a debate in Rules section earlier this year, but I don't remember finding anything that would justify declaring Cautious Movement you intend to end in base contact with enemy model. And it seems that curious interaction with front/back arc you've mentioned wasn't talked about in that particular thread either, but I would like to know more.
Nah, it's just Cautious Movement from what I remember. The rules haven't been written with clarified intent on that part, so it's mostly omission that enables that interpretation.
@Mahtamori Ah, I see. Well, last time I participated in discussion on the matter it turned into holy war about designer's intent, so...
I coulda sworn I'd already replied to this thread today... wonder if this was the one where I was going to go next but the notifications thing glitched... Yes, carrying that all the way out across all the units was basically to show there was a point it didn't need to happen. Looks like anyone with present CC scores over 18 or 19 and TAGs/REMs happens to be that point. Was going to ask why our Fusilier victim was hitting on 9s, then I remembered he's at +3 due to range. And you know there's a dice calculator, right? http://inf-dice.ghostlords.com/n3/ It does all the work for you! Daofei is only CC16 at present, dude. My proposal would be to bump it up to ~CC19, good enough at CC to make it a viable option.
Literally pointed the same thing out to Mahtamori the page before. Read the whole thing and don't pull stuff out of context. As you might note the Dao Fei also doesn't have TO or a DA CCW. We were talking about how the Dai Fei's CC is completely useless and the Hac Tao's is not. And no CC 19 Marker State with AP CCW is still terrible. The Hac Tao barely gets a pass because he can be expected to finish off low ARM targets with the Surprise Attack.
@Section9 Yeah, I'm aware of the dice calculator and I used it to generate each of the values shown in that post. What it doesn't do though is account for the compound effects of having to make multiple checks in a row. For example move+dodge followed by move+cc vs move+bs then move+bs.
Don't know if you played the tournement yet but here is a list i used some times on biotec. Biote IL──────────────────────────────────────────────────10 1 YĀN HUǑ 2 Lanzamisiles + TinBot C (Neourocinética) / Pistola, Cuchillo. (2 | 56) SÙ-JIÀN Escopeta Pesada, Lanzallamas Lig. Panzerfaust / Pistola Pesada, Cuchillo. (0 | 54) DÀOFĚI Teniente Spitfire / Pistola, Arma CC Shock. (1.5 | 55) GŬILÁNG Hacker (Disp. Hacker de Asalto) Fusil Combi, Minas Antipersona / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0.5 | 31) GŬILÁNG Escopeta de Abordaje, Minas Antipersona / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 24) NINJA Hacker (Disp. Hacker Asesino) Arco Táctico / Pistola, Arma CC DA, Cuchillo. (0 | 29) Yaókòng CHAĪYÌ Pulso Flash, Sniffer / Pulso Eléctrico. (0 | 8) Yaókòng HÙSÒNG Ametralladora / Pulso Eléctrico. (1 | 25) GUARDIA CELESTIAL (Disp. Control de Kuang Shi) Fusil Combi + Lanzagranadas Lig. Humo / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0.5 | 13) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 5) 5.5 CAP | 300 PuntosAbrir en Infinity Army TheYan Huo is here to kill himself and make your oponent wast orders with smoke. With luck he can survive 2 or 3 orders or evan land some hit. All others models are to midfiled range warfare. The idea is to use 2 cordined orders and if its neccesary trowh smoke to advance.Thee husong can make the sacrifice to but the idea is to deploy it on the edge of the midfiled. Sujian is you anti tag other big guys hunter with the boarding shotgun porfile as a reinforcment. u Luck in the tournement. u
Because at this point I've got no confidence that CB isn't out of their fucking minds. Asuka, Neko, Shinobu and Yuriko just got pulled from the Yu Jing line up, and now Xi Zhuang? It's ridiculous before you go back further into Ko Dali territory. Did they not take a minute to consider that maybe they were going a little overboard on the taking things from Yu Jing front?
