1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

ODD/TO and USAriadna

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by Cry of the Wind, Jan 10, 2018.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,867
    Likes Received:
    4,695
    This is kind of a matchup-knowledge thing, but as I play USAriadna and Onyx, I feel I should bring it up - Onyx fucking hates mines. Pre-emptively laying them around objective zones is generally a good strategy vs. Onyx, since our infiltrators and Umbra all die to Shock hits. It's not really going to be a "just in case" event - put them out there if you're up against Onyx and you're at least going to drain some orders, and you might put your opponent in a tough situation.
     
    Balewolf and Cry of the Wind like this.
  2. Cry of the Wind

    Cry of the Wind Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    374
    There is a difference between being an underdog vs not having a chance. Clearly there is a way to play these guys well as other people somehow do it. At the same time I also see people post that they wouldn't bother taking this Sectorial to an event that had some specific missions. In my experince on the table I don't see it and am trying to figure out how to get these suggestions to actually work. I like the models and background but its leaving a bad taste that there are soo many bad match ups or bad missions. Why bother release a sub faction if it is not really competitive in many commonly occuring situations.
     
  3. Balewolf

    Balewolf It's all opinion

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    538
    I'd say that the only mission that they struggle in is one requiring hackers/highly classified (d-charge or repairing classified). USAr has all the tools to get stuff done, but it's not always by doing it FtF. USAr wins the majority of their games by playing to the mission. From both sides of the game, I usually see them grabbing things turn 3, with either foxtrots or Maverick FOs (that had been sitting back or just throwing smoke most of the game). One of the mistakes I used to make was by trying to kill, then claim objectives, then set up defenses. That doesn't work for US, even with high order pools.

    Use your links and AD to kill what ARO pieces you have to (if VZ is in an unimportant pool, rambo out their backfield if you can and then set him in suppression/hide him to be a pain), then go and set up defenses around the objectives. You don't have to flip them on yet. Set up mines/suppression fire, but keep someone back to be able to flip them the following turn (Foxtrot in camo or a Mav). Do not engage their big pieces! Starve out their order pool as they try to get through the mines/remove VZ/IIHFTGs and other ARO pieces. Yes, you are going to lose people, so look at how you organize them in the pool, but you should be slowing them down as you do it. Turn 2 is about taking out targets of opportunity and flipping easy switches. Be sure not to stretch yourself out, because as soon as they can start singling out AROs, that single unit is probably dead. Turn 3 is either cementing your hold or the last minute dash to the button. Always try to have at least 1 camo foxtrot (just walk past suppression) or mav (to smoke) at this stage. Again though, don't smash your face into the enemy's big uglys unless you are at decent odds. Practice keeping the one or two objective grabbers or smokers around to be able to achieve the objective.

    People have made a ton of suggestions, and trying them out is exactly what you need to do, but they aren't always going to work out, and many require experience to get to work (I bring 4 IIHFTGs, only 1 sticks its landing, you have to make its position count). We can talk about list building all day, especially about building to try to counter certain factions, but in the end, that won't matter. You can have all the tools in your list and not be using them correctly, or you could be trying to counter ODD spam and the enemy doesn't run it. Build towards the mission instead, and focus on that as much as possible.

    Other than the links and VZ though, USAr doesn't really have the brute force face smasher/all rounders/ high stat-lines that it sounds like you want. If you're not liking the way USAr works, try proxing another force or borrowing a friend's army to play for a few games. It should give you a new perspective.
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,867
    Likes Received:
    4,695
    IMO the only thing I think is an outright mistake for USAriadna is the fact that you only get 1 source of D-Charges, which makes the Sabotage classified a pain in the ass. Since nothing with TO camo or ODD has MSV 2+, smoke grenades are how you deal with them, 100%. Get used to it. And that includes killing them - tossing a smoke grenade on them and running some CC units in can do the trick, as can the copious amount of flamethrowers the sectorial possesses.
     
    Cry of the Wind likes this.
  5. Cry of the Wind

    Cry of the Wind Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    374
    I think I will see if switching armies with one of the other guys for a game or 2 will make me see the strenghs a bit better.
     
    Hecaton and Balewolf like this.
  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,867
    Likes Received:
    4,695
    Army switch days are fun! I love it when my local playgroup does this.
     
    Golem2God likes this.
  7. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    885
    Likes Received:
    1,304
    Every faction, and especially every Sectorial, has strengths and weaknesses. My point here is that you're comparing apples and oranges in talking about Nomads (an entire faction) vs. USAriadna (a single sectorial). People do play and win with every faction and sectorial out there, but some times that win on specific match ups will require a bit more thinking outside of the normal box.
     
    Golem2God and Balewolf like this.
  8. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    885
    Likes Received:
    1,304
    Follow up thought:

    When I first started playing Infinity back in 2nd edition, I loved the aesthetic of Ariadna, and especially Caledonia. It was part of what got me started in the game. However, I struggled to play them well, and eventually switched factions. I played (old school) Combined Army for a long time before I really came to appreciate the strengths that Ariadna can offer. Realizing that your current pick is turning out to not really suit your play style or preference is self-awareness, not weakness, and may well lead to you growing as a player anyways.
     
  9. Cry of the Wind

    Cry of the Wind Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    374
    I appreciate the thought macfergusson. Tonight just reinforced my hatred of TO though. Played against vanilla Haq in Firefight and won 10-0. His holo echos didn't save him from blast templates and while he had more camo on the table than I did I was able to force him to make tough choices with his. Lucky Maverick dodge of a viral mine allowed me to smoke a corridor with few orders and safety. Tore apart his link with an Airborne Ranger and basically tabled him by end of turn 2. If either side of the table had a single TO guy I would have had a much tougher if not impossible time dealing with them :persevere:
     
  10. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,478
    Likes Received:
    5,061
    Cry, Im going to copy the contents of my PM with regards to TO over here so that others can read it.

    hmm TO giving you trouble specifically.

    Well, to start with Lets determine what part of the TO that is specifically giving you trouble?

    TO really breaks down into
    -6 to hit
    Camo Marker state
    Hidden Deployment.

    There are some pretty solid counters to those in the USARF list, but its multiple pieces.

    So for example, the -6 to hit, thats pretty gnarly and can be a pain, but you can bypass it entirely if you have the right tricks.

    My personal favourites are as follows:
    Spec-fire: USARF has good ability to spec fire in the Lgl Grunt Lt, who can use its LT order to spec fire for "free" each turn, or grab the link bonuses to spec fire on +3 for a five man link.
    Or the Lgl foxtrot who can hide as a camo token midfield and then spec fire out in a 16 radius threat circle, doing it with the surprise shot -3 mod as well for its first shot (opponent can only dodge on -6)

    You do obviously need orders to fuel these guys but at 16 range with no other mods they will hit models on 7s, most things will be dodging on a comparable die and your at about 20% chance to do a wound. thats pretty solid for something that is going to cost way more than you 14-20 pt lgl.

    This can then be taken somewhat up to 11 with guided fire, the tactics are basically the same but the dice extremes are a little different, Foxtrot FOs getting the targetted state off is harder, but once the state is there then the TO is just a corpse in the waiting as your DA or AP/Shock guided will mulch it in short order.

    Finally, if you can get close DTWs like Inferior infiltration grunts will make a mockery of TO as they dont even care about the -6.

    Then you have a fairly solid access to MSV1 units, Marauder links rocking the HRL will terrify TO units, and Mavericks in my experience are very good and getting up and gunning them down, BS12 MSV1 is legitimate against TO units, particularly when you have SMGs, LRLs, HRLs, and Boarding shotguns.

    Thats just the start of the tools for dealing with TO, but there are other units that will get around the marker state aspect of the units, DTWs can intuitive attack or Discover+shoot to force unpleasent choices, and the Devil dog has sensor which is the bane of cam marker units.

    As to HD, thats a little more nuanced and mostly relies on baiting the unit out in ARO before killing it. though Sensor can drop them out of HD if they are in its ZOC pretty easily as well.
     
    W.T.Foxtrot and Cry of the Wind like this.
  11. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,443
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    In theory, it works. In practice it's harder as you cannot target a TO in marker form unless you have a valid target. An experience opponent is likely to recamo and stay away from other troops to avoid spec fire.
     
  12. Balewolf

    Balewolf It's all opinion

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    538
    It sounds like it's been less of a TO marker issue and more of a Suppression ODD and HD TO issue.
     
  13. Cry of the Wind

    Cry of the Wind Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    374
    Yea, most of the time they have no need to recamo up as they enter suppression or accomplish the mission (end of game) so targeting with spec fire is not the issue, its getting that roll to be higher than a 5 that is difficult. Most opponents are fully capable of protecting their TO/ODD guys by good placement of supporting troops or eliminating the threats before revealing. I can infiltrate 3 grunts with flamers every game but if they are killed off before the TO comes to play it doesn't matter. They trade for the flamer kills but win the game with the TO.

    I've added a Lgl Foxtrot to most lists for now to try and get that off as she can safely get in that 16" range. So far I have missed with every single shot but at least my camo tokens are becoming scarier to some players.
     
  14. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,478
    Likes Received:
    5,061
    If they are in camo they arent in supression fire.
    Thats where devil dogs with sensor. Desperados who are dosposable and other units come in
     
  15. Cry of the Wind

    Cry of the Wind Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    374
    So I have a new TO and ODD threat in my gaming circle. He is one of the best local players and was kind enough to give me his list. Sticking to just USARF what can I do to fight this? I'll already admit that we had one very close game (7-5 points and if I had picked the opposite table edge for my Airborne Ranger it would have been 7-6 for him or even a win for me). It still seems to suck as my grenades are hitting on 8's at best and finding enough orders to spec fire while still doing something productive is troublesome. I'm not feeling as defeated as the last time I came here with this topic (my win rate is now above 50% and I've placed well in local events!) but the issue still stands and I'm still struggling. Other main TO enemy is Onyx with a Sphinx now...real pain in the posterior that one.

    [​IMG] JSA
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    [​IMG] RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    [​IMG] RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    [​IMG] RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    [​IMG] ONIWABAN Submachine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0 | 37)
    [​IMG] KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    [​IMG] KEISOTSU Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 9)
    [​IMG] KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    [​IMG] KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    [​IMG] KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14)
    [​IMG] YURIKO ODA Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 23)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    [​IMG] SAITO TOGAN (Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW, Knife. (0 | 40)
    [​IMG] RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 20)
    [​IMG] PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    [​IMG] TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  16. Balewolf

    Balewolf It's all opinion

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    538
    Everything from my last comment still applies. The main thing with the change in this list is that apart from the (what I assume are suppression fire) Ryuken, he doesn't have much in the way of ARO. Mine, mine, mine and send someone in the back door. Only use speculative fire when you need to on his suppression fire pieces, as it's order intensive and will probably force him out of suppression fire, even if it doesn't land. He also might drop the mines by his feet before going into SF, so that's a two-fer. Heavy Flamer grunts are much cheaper than his Ryuken and Ninjas, and so are Desperados, so don't be afraid to trade. FOing out of suppression range and then dropping a Katyusha on something is also an option (don't use guided, just spec fire with the FO bonus). Also, mines mines mines.

    With only having a ML and a Spitfire, a Maruader Haris team with sniper and HRL could do some dirty things, depending on the board. A Molotok Mav would also have a decent shot of dicing out much of his suppression stuff.
     
  17. Káosz Brigodéros

    Káosz Brigodéros Vanguard, Inc.

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    467
    Likes Received:
    356
    I am being curious asking what exactly was the problem with the list above?
    Ryukens (in SF I presume) should be shot at from more than 24' afar. Your opponent will either dodge and breaks SF rending his Ryukens into ultra-short range threats (exposing them to HMG/sniper fire: even ODD will not counter the short range of SMG) or takes shots unopposed. Grunt fireteams normally include a couple HMGs/snipers. They should make short work of them Ryukens.
    Keisotsu fireteam is not bad but BS 10 is pretty garbage - even with the fireteam bonus. Once you kill the missile launcher guy, the firepower is mostly gone.
    Rui Shi... Well... MSV2 is annoying but the relatively short range of Spitfire, 0ARM and lack of negative mods make him an easy target especially from 24' away. A lil bit o HMG love (or sniper) will again do the trick.
    Pangguling and Weibling is not too much a threat (repeater network will not bother you for your troopers are not hackable) and both of them are pretty squishy.
    Oniwaban & Saito Togan: Now we talking! Infiltrating TO camo CC monsters are no joke! Too bad they are pretty much one-shot wonders. Yup, they can slice any and all your troopers with MA4 and CC24 (and exotic close combat weapons) in CC. With -6 negative MOD for TO camo (and smoke grenade) they are rather good in surviving firefights. But being W1 troopers with ARM1 they will die to template weapons very, very easily. Flamethrowers and mines will work wonders against them. Once they are revealed, weight of fire will also work against them. (Shooting from 24' afar and the fireteam bonus will negate the TO MOD - and these guys are measley BS11...)
    Granted these two guys will do damage to you before going down but the rest of the list is rather easy to deal with for USAriadna. And make sure that these two guys will go down after the initial impact: Watch Ya bax! Just do not rambo upfields with one single heavy hitter! (Or be prepared to lose him.) Grunt/Marauder/Minutemen fireteams (loaded with flamethrowers) Desperados and Foxtrots backing up the advancing troopers will make sure these two guys will not kill more than 2 of your troopers. And make sure he will regret sacrificing a 40-pointish trooper for a cheap one.
    And obviously: send an AD trooper in his backfield and slaughter the squishy guys! (Van Zant or 6th Airborne) Is always fun!
    I hope this helps!
     
    #77 Káosz Brigodéros, Apr 6, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  18. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,708
    Likes Received:
    4,598
    Passive defenses (mines), active lights (FLAMETHROWEEEEEEEERS!!!!! XD), Spetznatz shotgun + grenades, Desperadoes...

    Play the Haqquislam game of asymmetrical exchange of resources (models, orders) and go for what you do good but he does not (example: irregular melee troops that care nothing about E/M or Shock!)
     
  19. Cry of the Wind

    Cry of the Wind Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    374
    I've never seen them deployed in a way that allows long range shots at them outside of their range. Even then you are looking at 5's to hit them with a Grunt HMG in most situations which takes some orders and exposes the rest of the fireteam to retaliation. If the mission forces me to advance into their range I'm in trouble which is what keeps happening. Even if I get 1 of them the others still lock down approaches. They are rarely an even trade for me, typically killing at least one or two models and eating an entire turns worth of orders. With most lists having 16 orders for me I can't afford to be rolling 5's or 8's one shot at a time with spec fire and my best close in units are needed to push the buttons those things guard.

    I've love to see a battle report with USARF facing a large number of these things and just wiping them out as effortlessly as you seem to make it sound. These Ryuken are forward deployed and guarded with mines plus the x-visor removes the negative mods for the long range so they tend to hit back on 9's while giving base -12 mods in return.
     
    Káosz Brigodéros likes this.
  20. Balewolf

    Balewolf It's all opinion

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    538
    If they are deploying on the midline, counter deploy foxtrots on them. You can then drop mines around a corner and then have someone take shots at them or move in their LoS to bait them to take shots or dodge. If the mines aren't covering themselves, walk the Foxtrots or Hardcases past them and then shoot them in the back or drop mines yourself. Desperado and Devil dog smoke and intuitive shot is a thing as well. HFII Grunts behind them. Even if they blow the mine, they'll probably take the Ryuken with them. I just threw this list together quickly. You can easily switch out HFII Grunts for more Foxtrots and switch around the Haris and Grunt team members. Freeing points up for VZ to come in the back door would be easy as well.

    [​IMG] USAriadna Ranger Force
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] MARAUDER (Fireteam: Haris) Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22)
    [​IMG] MARAUDER Lieutenant Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    [​IMG] MARAUDER (Multispectral Visor L1) Sniper / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
    [​IMG] GRUNT (Marksmanship LX) Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
    [​IMG] GRUNT HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 21)
    [​IMG] GRUNT Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] ROSIE Light Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
    [​IMG] GRUNT (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    [​IMG] GRUNT (Marksmanship LX) Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
    [​IMG] DESPERADO Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]7 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11)
    [​IMG] GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11)
    [​IMG] GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11)
    [​IMG] GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11)
    [​IMG] MAVERICK (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19)
    [​IMG] FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    [​IMG] FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    [​IMG] WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] HARDCASE FRONTIERSMAN Tactical Bow, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)

    6 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army