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Objective Points, Forfeits, and Expectations of Sportsmanship

Discussion in 'ITS' started by Hecaton, Feb 19, 2019.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    And a codified way to handle a forfeit in tournaments would be good for both of those situations. Right now a lot of players think that part ofthe expectation of sportsmanship of Infinity involves playing out all your rounds to give your opponent a fair opportunity to score OP's.
     
    #41 Hecaton, Mar 10, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  2. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    What we're generally after is clearly-written rules that can be more or less loosely applied. This means that everyone knows what can happen by default, and have some assurance about the various likely outcomes. Also, the adjudicator on the scene not only has latitude in applying the law, but has to take responsibility and is usually accountable for doing so, which is also desirable.

    We know this is a good principle because it's exactly what happens with rules of law in our society generally. For example, speed limits on roads are almost always clearly defined; but the degree to which they're enforced and their penalties applied is not only variable, but usually very generous too.

    And if that weren't true, most of us would've been bankrupted by speeding tickets a long time ago! :smile:
     
    #42 Wolf, Mar 10, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
  3. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    And stripping TOS of the flexibility @grampyseer is talking about wouldn’t do anything to grow the community. If a player’s got to run or step away, they step away. In the rare enough occasions it happens, TOs will be able to figure out an (at minimum) least bad option for the remaining player.
     
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  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    As a TO myself, I'd rather have a codified way to do it so there's no question of partiality.
     
  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Then codify it for yourself in your players pack.

    Mean winner's OP for the round @remaining VP vs forfeiters current OP and 0VP is what I'd do.
     
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  6. Flipswitch

    Flipswitch Sepsitorised by Intent
    Warcor

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    I think on first thought - I'd end up running that first scenario as a drop and a bye for that first player after talking about them with it. - If there was already a bye round, I'd match them up with that bye round and go from there I think? It's not a great situation for either party and I've been the person who has had to drop from an event before because of an emergency.
     
  7. multor

    multor Member

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    I used to play tournament chess. If someone has to leave, this is the consequences:
    Their future opponents get a 1:0 (win) without having to play. The leaving player remains in the Swiss System Ranking in order to determine his next opponent just as if he or she were still present. No refund, prizes according to position earned in played games.
    This is quite restrictive, but it works well and even expensive tournaments follow this route.

    This is a very difficult thing to handle in Infinity, because there are multiple tie-breakers in place. The diffferent levels of winning and losing might make it difficult to come to a fair conclusion. And also: Infinity players like to play the game, winning without to play is regarded as less desirable than winning an actually played game. (I totaly agree with his, btw.)

    I think it is unfair, that someone, who has to leave during Game 1, can have a better result than someone who plays all the Games (loses them all horribly, but at least plays them to the enjoyment of his opponents, providing them with better victories than an absent player would).

    In the Infinity tournaments I have played so far, there has been a table of prizes to choose. Winner picks firts, etc. Easy, fair, no problem. But if the absent player gets to pick before the present players, there might be a problem.
    If you have to leave quite late (i.e. after the start of the last game), this might no be an issue, but early leavers (like: in the first half of the tournament) should forfeit their pick or pick least from what is left.

    Even worse: If two players leave the tournament, i would be easiest for the TO to pair them against each other and award a 0-0 without tornament point, but tournament Manager considers this a draw and counts it as even better for them then a small loss for each of them. So, if two players leave, the TO either has two byes or an undeserved draw...

    We all agree, that life can make it necessary to abandon a hobby tournament, no discussion about that. I also do not have any bad feelings about players who have to leave due to unforeseeable circumstances.
    But an absent player can never be rated better, than a present player who is at least willing to fight his way to victory. At least, that´s what I think.
    One reason for this thinking is, that you should not benefit from not playing or from conceding a game / a tournament. This should always be the worst option.

    In our very sportsmanlike community, I think that the rules should be as strict as possible, so that TOs, local commmunities, etc. can soften them up for courtesy reasons, as they see fit. If someone has to leave from a tournament he paid money to play in, I think this player has a rough day, lost the tournament and his buy in. So, I would chip in to collect his buy in for in the next tournament. But his conduct cannot be formalized, only encouraged.
    We´re not a huge tournament scene, we´re just a few hundred people at best around the globe. This is why I think, that we should have strict RAW, which can be softened upon agreement. I also think, that TOs like to refer to strict RAW and come up with something, that pleases everyone. In order to give this room to TOs, I think that these tournament rules should be strict and restrictive, but with the empowerment/encouragement towards TOs to adjust.
     
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  8. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    Do you meanto say that our tournament system could or would rank someone who missed a match above someone who's completed all their matches? This would mean that the system has no way of distinguishing tournament points earned and tournament standing, which we naturally understand as different things.

    I agree with you that a player who's abandoned the tournament (even being absent for a single match) should have no final standing in the tournament - this is common practice in sporting events.

    Working example: a 3-game tournament with 6 players, named A to F
    Player A completes all three games but loses each one badly, and scores few points. Player B completes only two matches, but wins them strongly with many points, then has to leave the event before his final game. At the end, Player B's points are higher than Player A's points, but has no final tournament standing because he did not finish. Meanwhile Player A has less points than B, but has a higher final standing - because he actually finishes. The final results (with arbitrary points totals) might be reported as:

    Player A had enough points to finish in third place, but did not finish, so has no final standing and could win no prize, glory or honour :smile:. He does know how many points he scored however, and does have his ELO adjusted accordingly.
     
    #48 Wolf, Apr 1, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
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  9. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Contractor for the Tartary Army Korps

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    We have had a few situations where a player has had to leave (I've been guilty of this myself, but life happens), and we all work it out together with the TO so everyone is happy
     
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  10. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    This was a great post generally @multor, thank you. And I couldn't agree more with this point: we want strict rules; loosely played.

    Again, nicely said. Military and emergency services personnel quickly get comfortable with understanding that orders or protocols can be strictly defined, but managed appropriately, according to the situation. And also that when the shit hits the fan, any deviation from the protocol will prove career-limiting. (I'm sure @Section9 could regale us with a tale or two about daily life aboard a nuclear submarine illustrating that you don't usually do every single thing by the book, but that there may be consequences when you don't! :grin:)

    And every single one of us is familiar with strict rules; loosely applied from civil laws such as speed limits on public roads. Look at how surprisingly strictly our road rules are defined, but how remarkably loosely they're applied:

    Motorists and the police both know how the laws for motoring speed limits work, and how they're to be enforced
    Motorists have to pass an exam that says they agree to abide by those road rules
    The police take an oath to enforce the law (they are sworn officers; a contract they all undertake with deadly seriousness)
    The areas for speed limits are clearly and unequivocally marked by signposts, or national speed limit defaults.*

    These exams, sworn oaths and clear signposting are all incredibly strict conditions, and if they were applied as strictly as we'd expect, the police would have a very busy month, and we'd all be disqualified and bankrupted before payday! Yet in practice, the police do not strictly enforce the rules for speed limits, but rather enforce them in situations that appear to be unusually or unnecessarily dangerous.

    My point is that 'strictly defined rules; loosely applied' is a good thing for us as gamers in our hobby, and not - as the Anxious Boys™ would have us believe, a draconian imposition on our leisure time. We need not abandon all intelligence when it comes to rules and their application intelligence just because 'we're only playing a game'. We want more strict rules; more loosely played. See if it ain't so.


    * areas for speed limits are clearly and unequivocally marked by signposts everywhere except New Zealand, where they appear and disappear without rhyme or reason, and where motoring laws are less understood than Corvus Belli's FAQ policy :wink:
     
  11. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    @Wolf Who is this bizarre and alien “we” that wants there to be strict but unenforced rules? Because all that does is create problems:
    • It creates the belief of unfairness if those rules are ever enforced.
    • It undermines the authority of the rules. “It says X here.” “Yeah, but those rules aren’t enforced.” “So what other rules aren’t enforced?”
    What happens when a 40k tournament introduces new rules and then fails to implement them? 50 page discussion thread.

    Give it a try. Publish a painting policy for a tournament, let one group know that the policy won’t be enforced, and then see how everyone else feels on the day of the tournament. You get people that don’t come back.

    Edit: More importantly, imagine how you’d feel if CB published an amazingly detailed FAQ policy and then didn’t follow through on that policy. Or if there were the perception of bias in rules enforcement at Interplanetario.
     
    #51 solkan, Apr 3, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
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  12. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    This is always going to be a discussion of personal preference.

    Some people like/need rules and direction to these kinds of interactions.

    Others will bristle at the need for such rigour and the difficulty in adjusting to specific circumstances.

    Just to point of the examples of civil laws, I'm sure there's plenty of examples where rules have been applied to people in totally inapppropriate and excessive ways. Writing strict rules hoping for lax application isnt much different to lax rules being applied more strictly - at least in the context of something with little consequence. And depending on the viewpoint can be equally appluaded or derided.
     
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  13. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    My dear @solkan! Since our friend @Magonus left us - despairing that CB would never manage the Wretched Trollboys that roam in wild herds, terrorising these forums, you are surely the best, clearest, and most reliably informative forum member still remaining.

    So may I ask why you're posting such untrammelled bollocks here? :smile:

    Firstly, you've very obviously misquoted my post as the basis of your own post and, since that's not a mistake you'd usually make, I did ponder what kind of subtle and subversive intent you might've had. If there was one, I'm sorry - it was beyond me.

    Secondly, we demonstrably do want clearly written rules and remedies, and we do want them applied more or less firmly as the context requires. That's how it works in the real world of law; that's how it works in other sports and games; and that's how it'll work for us too.

    Finally, take a look at who's upvoted your post and be assured you must've gone badly wrong somewhere. Be afraid; be very afraid. :grin:
     
    #53 Wolf, Apr 5, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Wolf who the fuck is this "we" you're talking about?
     
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  15. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    Well, that would be you and I, Son. I agree with your OP, as anyone who can read these posts of yours and mine can see.

    It's your fucking thread: pay more fucking attention, and stop being so fucking hostile. WE are all tired of the bullshit.
     
    #55 Wolf, Apr 7, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
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  16. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    So now that it is established that both of you agree on the same issue, can the situation deescalate and move to a more productive discussion?
     
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Don't ever speak for me.