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Objective Points, Forfeits, and Expectations of Sportsmanship

Discussion in 'ITS' started by Hecaton, Feb 19, 2019.

  1. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    I'm pretty confident this isn't correct correct for any top level sport, and although I don't know soccer very well, I'm pretty sure most governing bodies have adequate provision in the case that a match is aborted for unexpected reasons.

    For related example, the Football Association rules provide exactly how to manage the very unlikely situation of a team losing nearly half its players during a match :
    Soccer tournaments and leagues definitely do also have rules for what happens if a match can't be completed. It's usually something like a rematch must be played within a fortnight, with existing club fixtures for both teams taxing precedence. It has happened once or twice.
     
  2. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Leagues and individual tourneys do, but the Laws of the Game don’t. And the bylaws noted above from the FA cover FA sanctioned events, but wouldn’t be binding on the RFEF in, for example, the Copa del Rey.
     
  3. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    Sure, but the context of the question is around how to handle a tournament situation, where tournament points are at issue.

    Sure, so it's not a game rule; but It's by no means an unlikely situation in amateur gaming events. Illness, injury and domestic or professional responsibilities are all common enough, so it's exactly the sort of thing Corvus Belli should specifically address for ITS.

    Can you explain for us what a Bye is worth in actual points?

    And can those who've organised a tournament and had to manage this sort of problem tell us what they ruled?
     
    #23 Wolf, Feb 24, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
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  4. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    I feel like in this case that’s a disingenuous argument since CB writes both the core Infinity rules and the ITS rules.
     
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  5. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Without getting my ITS out, I think its a minor victory with OPs based on the average for that round.

    As before, its going to be a hugely contextual thing;

    Whats the circumstances, whats the seriousness of the tournament, who are the two players, how much time does the TO have.

    The resultant ruling will need to consider all of those and there is literally absolutely NO single ruling that CB can make that will cover the different circumstances sufficiently.

    eg. an abandoned game could be due to one player having an ill family member and having to leave.
    the exact same situation except the player was just angry at their dice so they just wanted to go do something else.
    the same situation except the player leaving has found the other player really rude, or said something offensive, or was rough with their models.

    Now their opponent could be in the running for the top spot and would have likely beat them.
    or, they could be a casual player just here for fun and doesn't care for the results.
    The

    All of those variables are going to factor into how you, as a TO will address it and a single rule will only really be applicable to one of those circumstances.
     
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  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Alphz the issue is, nothing in the rules says to adjudicate it like that. There are no guidelines. It's perfectly within the rights of a TO to say "Your opponent forfeited before you spent your last order on your last turn? Minor victory, no OPs." And that's a problem.
     
  7. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    There is literally nothing forcing them to follow guidelines. I guess I struggle to comprehend how a TO who could be such a giant dick would suddenly not be one if CB provided some guidelines.

    But trying to be productive, since I don't really understand the circumstances you're in. What kind of rules/ guidelines would you find acceptable and think would resolve the issues you're concerned about?
     
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  8. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    I know exactly what the issue is here: it's one of managing uncertainty, and OP's objection to the current lack of definition in ITS rules is entirely reasonable, and quite well expressed. The Buddhists say: 'too late to dig a well when the house is on fire', and it's certainly too late to make a ruling when the players have moved their troops and the dice have been rolled.

    We all need to know in advance how a situation will be ruled, and since Corvus Belli have a seemingly pathological inability to write anything down at all, we can safely say they won't address this, and it will almost certainly be down to the Tournament Organisers to manage it as best they can for the forseeable future.

    I'm very far from an experienced Infinity player, but I do have a lifetime of competing in sporting and gaming events, and about half of it coaching others and organising events. My formula for a quiet life and well-run event pretty much boils down to the following:
    • Decide your rulings (ie. anything that's not already clearly in the rulebook)
    • Write a catch-all clause for when everything goes sideways
    • Write them down *
    • Publish them in advance **
    • Publish them again at the event
    • Draw attention to them before the event in front of all the competitors
    * this is arduous and time-consuming, but it's worth every ounce of sweat in the long run
    ** this has the added benefit that your one friend who actually reads them will catch something stupid; this is good, because then you can revise your stupid plan before the event begins, and not have to undermine your own credibility.

    Make it the player's responsibility to know what the rulings will be in advance, and pay particular attention to anything that's being regularly argued about in the Rules Forum. Whether it's the Wall Drag Engage, Shooting in the Back from the Front, or The Interpretation That Cannot Be Named™ just make your decision, write it down, and publish.

    Yes, this all requires hard work and at least a modicum of testicular capacity, but on the whole, it's a lot less trouble than trying to make a critical ruling on the fly that'll mean someone wins and someone loses. Trust me on this. People who don't like those rulings don't have to attend. People who really don't like your rulings can complain to Corvus Belli. And good luck to them with that.

    This is all general, I'll hazard a couple of specific rules as an example, with the proviso that the actual details will need work from more experienced players.
     
  9. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    Hell yeah that sounds weird. You can't force other TO to handle another way.

    Here is one idea. If the guy forfeit before the end of turn 1 because ... "life" (some well rounded emergency excuse) I would apply the rules. Otherwise, you could say "ok, pack your minis. Your opponent is going to play against a virtual opponent that have no minis, except HVT (mark the HVT location) and no ARO. We will see how many point he can score within the remaining turns (playing what remain of turn 2 AND 3)".

    That way it's not an auto 10-0 / 300-0 pts victory but that's still better than a minor.
     
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  10. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    Ok, here's a shooting-from-the-hip example of how to write for players withdrawing from ITS games. More experienced players could follow the format and rewrite it as they see fit. And if you don't want to dig such a well, or you don't think you need one, good luck when your house catches fire. :smile:

    And no doubt the very idea of clarifying things might offend some people, but myself, I've learned to be very suspicious of people who don't think they need to clarify things. Why exactly would intelligent people not want a rule clarified, I have learned to ask...

    Just write these things down and keep writing them down, and your basic rulings document gets longer and longer and it gets easier and easier as players get more familiar with what you're trying to do.
     
  11. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    Yes, I don't feel qualified to comment on this. If someone told me I was organising an event tomorrow, I'd just rule that forfeits would give a full 10-0 win to the remaining player and see how it worked out. Dunno.
     
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  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    And yet TOs generally follow what's in the ITS document... funny, that.

    Why are you assuming malice? It might just be them running a 50+ person tournament and not having the time to adjudicate it to that level of granularity.

    Some sort of standard finalized score in the case of a forfeit (something like 5-0 rather than 0 OPs.).
     
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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Interesting idea but takes a *lot* of effort from a TO who's dealing with other games at the same time.
     
  14. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    How about the average OP for that round.

    Your hypothetical TO who is too busy to deal with anything more complicated than a rules question should probably be prepared for these things.

    Look, theres plenty of options. The TO just needs to choose one, as @Wolf states, preferably before the tournament. You can even suggest they put the clause in for the next tournament, its probably something they haven't thought about because it doesn't come up often. So you can help out the already large task of organizing a tournament by taking on some of the smaller admin.

    Its ironic that you can make this problem seem insurmountable for lowly TOs and players, but somehow it should be "easy" for CB.
     
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  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That becomes recursive if multiple players forfeit.

    Or, CB could do the work and then TOs wouldn't even need to do that.

    Or, CB could choose one, and then it wouldn't be seen as favoritism or subjective.


    That's because CB has the right to do so, they publish the tournament rules. At a certain point what a TO does will be considered "house rules" and then they aren't running an ITS event.
     
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  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Pers'nally for forfeiture I'd go with civvie-kill. Plain and simple and probably yields aa major victory. As long as I didn't suspect a player intentionally manipulating the score.
     
  17. grampyseer

    grampyseer User of the "ignore" button
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    Even with clear cut rules for how to handle a withdrawal or drop a TO will still need to exhibit judgment when deciding if a given situation should constitute either. Things are almost never clear cut enough to justify rigid codification, in my opinion.

    So, knowing that I have to use judgment anyways, I’d just as soon handle these odd balls on my own. This means that I’m willing to carry the burden of my mistakes within my meta. I’m fine with this. It means that I’m not stuck using the same judgment tool to parse someone who drops because they’re on tilt from someone whose hot water tank explodes at home.

    There’s an interesting consideration in the comparison between pro sports and Infinity. Athletes can be coerced into a rigid rule structure surrounding the game by the threat of denying future participation, and, by extension, revenue. Guys dropping from weekend tourneys are often already casual players (at best.)

    No such coercion would work.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Conversely, though, what happens if a TO isn't applying these judgment calls fairly or evenly? Wouldn't it be good to have this codified?

    Denying future participation can be enough. Magic works like this.
     
  19. grampyseer

    grampyseer User of the "ignore" button
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    My point was that, in our local meta’s experience, the people most likely to drop are often “fringe” community members anyway. They would be less likely to care if they didn’t get invited back.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    And all it would do is shrink the community.

    Life happens, emotions happen.