1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Novvy Cimmeria Convention #IPLAYFAIR

Discussion in 'OOC' started by AdmiralJCJF, Jun 22, 2018.

  1. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    Messages:
    967
    Likes Received:
    1,303
    That's true, but not inherently a negative outcome.

    We have a logical problem at this point:

    Group A games the system
    Group B complains.
    The System' methodology is altered, but Group A remains
    Group C wants to know how.

    The system cannot inform Group A of the new methodology, because they would just game the system with that.
    The system cannot inform Group C because it has no way to tell if there is any-or how much- overlap there is with Group A.

    The end result is resentment in group A that they got caught and suspicion among parts of Groups B and C because they only have the word of the System, which has been both manipulated and altered that group A's manipulation had been accounted for...

    If the Methodology is revealed, Group A manipulates the setup Group B complains and we end up back at this line pretty soon in an endless cycle of manipulation and adjustment. which is why the Methodology has only been revealed in very general terms.

    There are potential problems with both options, but one perpetuates the problem and creates an iterative loop.

    The obvious solution would be to remove group A, but there are reasons why that is impossible or undesirable, so we're stuck with the best solution we have as trust @psychoticstorm , @warzan , @Koni et all know what they're doing after running two of these already...
     
  2. deep-green-x

    deep-green-x Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    415
    Likes Received:
    905
    Algorithms are ideal for sorting a large amount of data but aren't capable of the situational and contextual reasoning that only a human set if eyes can bring.

    So I suspect the algorithm will be able to eliminate all the reports which are blank or obvious copy paste (since the data inputs will be very similar) but will flag for attention those reports which show signs of being junk but may not be. The key is that human beings don't need to look over 50 obviously junk reports to find the 3-5 which only have the appearance of junk but contextually are genuine.

    Also any algorithm will probably use additional information in terms of the number of comment, citations or rating of a report in the analysis process. It's not to hard to write something like this if you know how.

    For example you could write an algorithm to generate a selection of snarky posts on a forum based on the contextual information of the topic and using a few keywords. Then a human user could choose the posts they want to publish and add their own flair or limitations so as to not break any forum rules. If the algorithm is good enough you wouldn't be able to tell it apart from a regular user except the algorithm would have limited capacity to evolve it's arguments and would probably fall into patterns of repeating the same things all the time.
     
    AdmiralJCJF likes this.
  3. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    3,130
    Likes Received:
    5,993
    We are testing and evaluating a solution this year in accordance with the feedback we received from the previous campaigns, we will see how this one evolves and fine tune it for the next one.
     
  4. Wax

    Wax Duke of New York

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    36
    So what's up with this then? Is it playing fair to wait until a game is over to decide where the points are going? Hmmmm... 1530613751408.jpg
     
  5. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,410
    Likes Received:
    1,946
    Basically this.
     
    Hecaton likes this.
  6. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,410
    Likes Received:
    1,946
    Lmao this is what he meant by playing fair apparently
     
    Hecaton likes this.
  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,879
    Likes Received:
    4,707
    Yeah, can we get a confirmation as to whether or not that's allowed?
     
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,879
    Likes Received:
    4,707
    Well, CB/BoW don't want to give rules for the campaign, they want to keep them all secret. So probably?
     
  9. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    4,082
    To be clear, that thread has been removed by the moderators after clearly ruling that this isn't an acceptable way to play in Kurage.

    I'm perfectly happy with that as a ruling, but it is a significant change from the previous two campaigns where Beasts of War openly advertised deciding after the game where the result would be scored was a fun way to make sure the points always mattered.

    It's been pointed out since that this is a highly popular option, which has been actively advocated by several factions in their suggestions to players.

    And that was never part of the "I Play Fair" pledge quite consciously and deliberately. It has not, until now, attracted much (if any) negative commentary despite being a common feature of the previous two campaigns. The pledge is deliberately targeted around activities which negatively impact on the system or create a negative atmosphere, rather than choices individual players might make about their engagement with the Warconsole and Kurage games in their own homes. There was previously a big push around there not being a "wrong way" to engage with the Warconsole and I wanted to retain as much of that as possible, while pushing back against the behaviours which create a negative play experience for others.

    Like the idea of "winner decides location" or not, it's hard to argue that it hurts anyone if you are playing non-location missions and especially non-ITS missions.

    It's interesting to note that the biggest pushback was against the idea of reporting non-ITS games, which is specifically and explicitly permitted in the system design. This was the response which surprised me the most.

    And I expect the irony of a spy account posting private materials from a closed forum publicly to complain about a perceived breach of fair play is lost on no-one.
     
    #69 AdmiralJCJF, Jul 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  10. Luisjoey

    Luisjoey High Marshall of Wotan
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    482
    Likes Received:
    409
    As CB its moderating the event this time, not just BOW

    they shall focus on remove the INCOMPLETE reports that dont have the pictures and are AWAITING RESULTS

    also the Vanilla vs Vanilla reports, shall not give points because Ariadna its abusing on that TRAINING since yes they have several armies on their faction, but the campaing gotta have some ruling over.

    As IC i will say there is spaming on the network, but OC i see there is a clear playing by all the factions since nobody to this time (a week of the campaing) have more than 20 reports; so it´s ok... every faction is having a mancomnate effort to push their winning.

    #DEUSVULT
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  11. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    787
    Likes Received:
    524
    damn, i missed that memo. how "clear" was it ? i didn't really had time to keep up with our (NA2) briefing room, and there are no pinned post in the briefing room, kurage news, or elsewhere.

    I never liked the idea that the winner chose where the batrep goes in the previous campaign, i'm glad it was formally and clearly disallowed this time, but i'm not sure how clear it actually was considering this is the first mention of it that I stumble upon.
     
    AdmiralJCJF likes this.
  12. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    4,082
    The moderation team outright stated "this is not an acceptable way to play in the Kurage campaign".

    I asked for that message to be shared more widely, and for the thread to be deleted (because I can't edit it to change my advice, and I didn't want people doing the wrong thing).
     
    Robock likes this.
  13. Wax

    Wax Duke of New York

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    36
    Actually this was posted to a public forum where I found it. Ain't nobody got time for spy account nonsense. Not when they could be cranking out 2-3 batreps a day that they "played" with their wife/gf...

    ;)
     
    barakiel likes this.
  14. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    4,082
    I didn't say you had a spy account.
    I'm sure YOU don't.
    Someone making such a good faith and positive post as you did here wouldn't stoop so low.


    And I am not going to criticise others for how they want to play. Too many people have already been driven out of Infinity by that nasty pettiness.
     
  15. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    Messages:
    967
    Likes Received:
    1,303
    As far as we knew playing any ITS mission and the winner choosing the theatre was fine, even recommended, but I think the line about helping out by losing may have been misinterpreted, especially if the thread on TG is taken as indicative.

    A solid clarification would be helpful.
     
  16. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    4,082
    I meant exactly what I said, don't worry about losing because it helps our allies.

    But I did never, would never and have never told people to throw games.
     
    cazboab likes this.
  17. Luisjoey

    Luisjoey High Marshall of Wotan
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    482
    Likes Received:
    409
    It´s like Atek vs Atek Training games, something that shall be uncounting for game campaings.
     
    AdmiralJCJF likes this.
  18. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    Messages:
    967
    Likes Received:
    1,303
    I figured as much, but as I said, it was misinterpreted, at least by the members of the board it was posted on.
    The blue on blue from every faction will be discounted, its disingenuous to suggest that it's a particular problem for ariadna based on one report styled as a training mission.
     
  19. Luisjoey

    Luisjoey High Marshall of Wotan
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    482
    Likes Received:
    409
    Last campaing they weren´t discounted, well the price was collective achievement styled, i discourage the Blue vs Blue games, but rather NOT to be scored at all... sad if you get against a mirror match in a tourney! ask your Judge/warcor to change the match if able.

    This time the ateks had a massive participation, and the highest player have 12 games at a week of the event, no complains on that, NA2 made a boost but it´s still in the number, we need to incentivate players to play not to run away the game or evade oponents.
     
  20. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    4,082
    To be fair the Moderators have also been clear that there will be a thorough vetting of the reports this campaign
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.