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Not trying to be negative here.... but...

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Zewrath, Jun 29, 2018.

  1. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I think here you're devaluing the individual troops because they are in a fireteam. Not only is this a perspective that prevents you from fully utilizing a link, but it ignores the "weak link" problem where losing members loses bonuses. Having alternate paths to remove the fireteam bonuses makes them easier to pick them apart.

    For example, Massacre getting one with an e/m grenade? Not a big deal. Massacre getting the Missile Launcher so they rest of the link loses their BS bonuses so my second combat group with a Hellcat HMG already positioned to outrange them with 5 orders left? Their weakness drastically increases my chance of devastating their link with combined arms.

    Most HI were bad, especially links. Some were fixed. Now new, already competitive ones were added. Brigada got powercreeped in category, but that was hard to avoid.
     
  2. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I can't help but toss out Likes for some of the great dialog happening in this thread. A few things that jumped out to me:

    It's hard to believe that when I started playing the game, Nomads were known "The Medium Infantry faction". It's interesting now that they have some of the most enviable HI in the game. If we're creating broad categories of useful HI roles, Nomads suddenly excel in many of them. "Cost efficient gunfighter". Check. "Versatile solo choice". Check. "Dominant Core link team." Check check.

    Once upon a time, it was assumed that certain factions were simply dominant in some areas, bad in others. It was just understood by Nomad players that Nomads weren't known for Heavy Infantry. Period. Full stop.

    Now, I think they have the most admirable lineup of HI in the game as far as broad spectrum roles and efficiency. No, there's no Hac Tao or Swiss Guard equivalent, but you're also shaving 2-3 Regular Orders worth of cost off while having access to solo options that are still very strong.

    Optimistically, I'm hoping that these changes will make more sense once every faction has received its new Sectorial. Ramah bringing Haqq their elite gunfighters. Varuna bringing PanO theri disposable chaff. Invincible Army bringing... Who knows, but hopefully something that puts Yu Jing back on top as the iconic innovators of power armor in Infinity.

    I don't think we're necessarily seeing power creep, because that implies a progression of units beginning weak, and getting more powerful. I don't think I agree with that progression. Brigada have never been popular. Riot Grrrls were already good, then N2 gave them +1 BS, a ton of tacked-on useful weaponry, and Specialist profiles. Whoa. Now we have Hollowmen, and they're a solid addition. Fine.

    If everyone were running out to start TJC, or packing their Vanilla lists full of TJC units, then I would agree. But I don't imagine anyone is giving up their Intruders or Zeros any time soon, and those units have been around (and unchanged) for years.

    So I would encourage people to discard the notion of "Power Creep", and embrace the notion of "internal balance inconsistencies." That may sound like semantics, but they both refer to very different phenomenon.

    Lastly, because of the linear progression of release schedule... We really don't have the full picture yet. TJC may make a lot of sense once we see every faction's Sectorial offerings.
     
    #82 barakiel, Jul 9, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
  3. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Almost, remember 50 something point Intruder MSR? That was weird.

    Right, there was a category of "poor choices that you really need a niche reason to use" and guys are moving out of it to compete with the classics like Moran and Interventors. The only other ways to do it would be lifting every troop at once (impossible) or scaling back troops to the bad choices (dumb).

    The power level has changed, but I wouldn't define it as creep as it changes between editions. Dark Age just had a relaunch and the power is way different, but you can't compare an intentional sweeping change to how the game works changing the power level with each month's hot thing being stronger than the lasts.

    Sectorials that have come out since N3 have been if anything overly cautious. USAr, Onyx, NA2, Tunguska. As far as I can tell they are all a bit lacking, possibly to give room to expand.
     
  4. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Just curious if you got to the part mentioning that Hollowmen Links are rather easy to break in comparison. Might have missed it.
    I'm also saying they're good, but within parameters that still pass as okay.

    Realistically that Hellcat should not be able to get everything except the ML in HMG +3. Not quite certain why somehing with a 6" Superjump would be standing in a HMG firelane.

    We seem to mostly agree on the first part, so what exactly were you trying to point out?
     
  5. micawber

    micawber Member

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    I don't have the greatest insight into the inner workings of CB so this might be a misconception but it seems like CB has all the tools in place to allow for a flexible and selective rebalancing of certain units.

    They now have the direct data from our army-lists to spott potential issues like underused units and profiles or units so good you can find them in every list. Because all their rules are digital they can easily change and tweak selected units, integrate newly introduced rules into older profiles or even change fireteam or Sectorial composition. Through their own forums they could gather feedback on recent changes and adjust accordingly if necessary.
    Maybe some kind of errate every six month to give new profiles and rules time to settle with the community an really get an idea of their impact?
     
  6. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Ultimately I think it's all situational.

    The thing that makes me wary of the Hollowmen Core has nothing to do with Hollowmen themselves, but rather with their support troops.

    The Jammer Heckler is a nice tool for keeping those link-breaking short range troopers away from Hollowmen, but if you plan to use that Hollowman link very aggressively, the Heckler's going to have a hard time keeping up. Hollowmen will be better off on top of buildings.

    TJC's lack of conventional area denial tools like cheap Chain Rifles, cheap smoke tossers, minelayers, Koalas, etc makes me really wonder if Hollowmen can possibly keep themselves safe. The Sectorials that typically run HI links usually come with some very strong defensive tools to help them (Wu Ming with Kuang Shi/MSV2/Madtrap backup,) or the links themselves are well-rounded and capable of fighting off most threats through Dodging or CC (JSA HI links, MO HI links.)

    Hollowmen are kind of stuck at having to look out for themselves, which really make them feel more limited. Spektrs are too pricey to really be good for just dropping mines. Even going prone on rooftops is scary, because you don't have smoke as a backup option for climbing down if an opponent suddenly trains all their ARO guns on that roof to make sure you can't climb off it.

    I don't know if Hollowmen are going to prove competitive. They're certainly fine in a vacuum, but I don't know that they have the support that they need to avoid trouble.
     
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  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Hang on, your link is:
    Not bunched up
    Not in cross table firelanes
    Pushed into the midfield
    Not vulnerable to WB/SK

    Yeah... I'd very be surprised if I could manage all of that in practice.

    I still view them as primarily a T2+ link. Pushing them early seems like a recipe for disaster. But the more I build lists around them the clearer it is that they're significantly more restricted than Grrls.
     
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  8. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Just run across the fucking board and murder everyone. Speedrun that shit.
     
  9. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I'm absolutely fine with that trend.

    When games go too far in terms of specialities and identity they can become more like rock paper scissors. If rock starts smashing scissors and paper we have balance issues. Traditionally this approach has seemed tougher to balance.

    Other games go too far in the opposite direction. Everything does the same thing and any identity is lost. While it's easy to achieve balance this way, too much 'fun' is sacrificed which causes it's own problems.

    Personally, i prefer the CB approach atm. Create an absurd number of options and can give players access to nearly everything, which creates some semblance of balance. While also adding small levels of identity and specialization to so many different unit types that any glaring mistakes are outweighed by all the balance found everywhere else. I don't think factions need vastly different options or numbers to feel unique and have their own special appeal.

    Sectorials are certainly trying to buck that trend in favor of a more rock paper scissors approach. But again, there are simply so many options within Infinity that taking a few more options away in exchange for others isn't game breaking. Having enough identity between products also encourages players looking for something different to buy into more than one.
    I'm not sure what phrase is most accurate to describe these trends. But you're correct that power creep doesn't do what's actually happening any real justice.
     
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  10. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Might be my terrain looking vastly different than yours.
    4/5 tables I can think of cover that no problem with readily available rooftops. Would have to sift through the pics from the last 40man tournament to make a better guess.

    Then again... I didn't get to play my Marut list on the German Masters. In the mission it was built for the friggin table had 0 cover for a S7 Silhouette.
    Terrain can be a bitch.
     
    #90 Teslarod, Jul 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
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  11. jimbo slice

    jimbo slice Well-Known Member

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    I tried a Hollow Man link on Saturday. I basically just did what @Solar suggests, and they did murder everyone. I even managed to take down a Szalamandra in ARO with the ML. And that plan works, but I still needed to spend an order or two at the end of each turn to set them up for defense. I think the Stemplar and/or MR+Pitcher are going to be a must with that link. You absolutely need to get repeater coverage down around them on top of the normal covering the approaches.
     
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  12. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    I think area control pieces (minelayers, koalas/madtraps, units with access to drop bears or template weapons) are gonna be the best defense against hollow men. Glue in general will mess them up. Or hell, a minelaying infiltrator around the corner. Drop two mines around the corner and then inch out to shoot, thats not gonna be pretty for the hollow men. And ok, sure, you're spending three orders to make a single attack - but hollow men are gonna take a bunch of orders to deal with anyway.
     
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  13. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    It's easy, just play perfectly.

    I unironically agree with this.
     
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  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    EMaulers.

    Nomads are actually one of the scariest factions to play as Tunguska, particularly as Hollowmen.
     
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  15. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    Yeah I take them all the time with my Bandits in starco. It's nice to have HI threats, especially if there's a repeater nearby too (since stealth goes away if they're dodging templates)
     
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  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, PH10 is hideous for an HI. Plus, they're worth gluegunning. Or CCing with even marginally-competent CC troops (CC15+). EM is the usual hilarity against HI. EM2 is even more hilarious.


    You need to review how Courage and Religious interact. (No apparently *I* needed to review that... :facepalm: )

    Religious says you stand and fight for failing your Guts roll, must pass the Guts roll to dive for cover. Courage lets you choose to pass or fail the Guts roll. We usually say, "I'm going to dive for cover," or "I'm going to stand and keep going."

    Oh, damn, they changed that interaction. You get to choose which rule you use now.


    How is it that Nomads are not seeing how vulnerable Hollowmen are to EM and Glue?


    Yeah, I'm hoping that the Invincible Army gets useful enough items to be able to play almost all HI and everything that isn't HI is a REM. High tech, dammit!

    But I do agree that the Grrlz got a little too good in comparison to general HI. Mostly because they come across as trained soldiers now, less like violent anarchofeminists that don't play well with others. Grrlz Haris or Duo, not Core.

    That's an enormous amount of work. After GW stopped supporting the various Specialist Games, most of them went to the Living Rulebook format. They struggled to put out an update every year, with each force having an Army Champion to represent it. No person was Champion for more than one army, either, so there were probably 40 people involved (vanilla Guard had an AC, Siegemasters had an AC, Catachans had an AC, etc). Granted, they were doing the work more or less in their spare time, but it also made gaming work, as opposed to relaxation.

    And honestly, we are getting roughly annual balance adjustments in ITS rules.


    Yeah, I see hollowmen and see troops highly vulnerable to Mines, EM, and Glue, plus anything competent in CC is going to shred them. So Hollowmen need to be protected from all of that.
     
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  17. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    In a sectorial that finds that protection a bit tough.
     
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  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Unless you kill all the things. All the things. It's the only way to be sure. :)
     
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  19. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yup. I don't see Hollowmen as 'too good' (especially since I play YJ et al, with Ninja AHDs and KHDs, usually on the Rooftops!)

    You mean nuking it from orbit is the only way to be sure. :D
     
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  20. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Ummn... We actually are. Incidentally we are also VERY much aware of how rare those things are outside of Nomads. Furthermore CC weakness isn't really that relevant compared to how little CC sees play and how good Vanilla Nomads are at screening. But sure, CC is a much bigger problem than the other mentioned weaknesses.
     
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