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Not trying to be negative here.... but...

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Zewrath, Jun 29, 2018.

  1. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    StarCo. Would you like AD Templates, Infiltrating Templates or Spec FIred Templates? Screw it: why not all three?
     
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  2. micawber

    micawber Member

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    After letting all that TJC goodess sink in I really wish they will revitalize the suboptimum or uninteresting older Nomad units with some of the newer rules. Maybe rebalance them a bit. Alguaciles look kinda bad next to Securitate. Obviously that would be a good idea for the whole range not just for Nomads.
    They kinda did it with Human Sphere so maybe with Archeron falls?

    For me TJC actually looks like a very aggressive sectorial or at least I feel like it's much harder to play them defensivly than CJC or even Bakunin. With Tunguska the Nomad theme of having a LOT of very capable toolbox units bolstered by a solid core holds even more true.
     
  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Algs are fine. They're basically the standard profile with everything else being adjusted from their base.

    MB, most MI, unused Morlock profiles, Moderators, Carlotta, TM HMG. These are the things that struggle in Nomads.

    But mostly they're actually common issues across factions.
     
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  4. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I don't have any complaints about 'basic' profiles found in some factions. Of course I wish for new/updated/changed profiles and toys but i'll always do that for as long as I play Infinity.

    The only thing that keeps me from playing JCC and other older sectorials are the old miniatures. The newer range is just far superior to me. I will continue to avoid them in favor of factions with newer mini's.
     
  5. Click2kill

    Click2kill Well-Known Member

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    Mobile Brigada just need a haris option and more flexibility, I would consider Geckos in the same boat.

    Nomad MI units are are for the most part good. I think MI in general could be considered weak because that 2 inches is a big deal. Aside from the Intruder(because we know what that is), Wildcats have decent loadouts and can be an engineer spec. Hellcats are the best non-character jump troops in the game. Moiras are a bit expensive but have ODD and decent weapons loadouts. Sin-Eaters are moving defense turrets, Prowlers... well, their best loadout appears to be the Boarding Shotgun, Grenades and D-Charges, they probably need a SWC reduction on the spitfire to the normal 1.5. Grenzers have a sensor option, and more detection in TJC. And most of these profiles are BS 13.

    Morlocks are fine, the reason those profiles are unused is because they have 1-3 amazing profiles( I would say 3) that just get taken all the time.

    Moderators are ok because they at least cost less than alguacils; They also have the cheapest spitfire in the game, and you can take 2 in a link team and not drain your SWC. They are also immune to shock... maybe not the greatest feat, but it can allow you to doctor them up.

    If Carlotta came with Moriarty at 30 pts, I would consider her more for lists.

    I'm guessing TM HMG is the Taskmaster? I don't see anything wrong with Taskmasters. Free Agent is nice, and the Martial Arts Level 1, which gives stealth, so you can move out of hacking zones as long as you keep moving and they can't see you.
     
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  6. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Brigada Haris would be pointless. Geckos are good right now.
     
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  7. TaHu

    TaHu Well-Known Member

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    I don't think so. Alg/jag core + MB haris would be cool. This gives you another B5 hmg. I am not a fan of gekkos, so I don't think they worth it.
     
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  8. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

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    Well, from being on the receiving end of both Brigadas and Nomad MIs I can say both are fine. I agree MB could indeed use more flexibility, Haris and mixed links sounds good.
     
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  9. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    To all people asking for more flexibility and link options in their HI units, you're just largely spoiled by Riot Grrls and Hollow men, which are wrong. These units have too many things when they shouldn't.
    If you want flexible HIs , then play another army, YuJing and Invincible army is what you want. Don't try to bring the defining points from other armies to yours, as this attitude is what is destroying the balance in this game. Nomads were never meant to be good in the HI field.
     
  10. micawber

    micawber Member

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    While I agree Algs are fine in a vacuum the math gets really wonky when comparing them to securitate. You just get so much for those 3 points difference.

    MB are so very close to beeing a perfectly solid choice. Right now for me they just miss that lil extra oomph. Give them a Haris option and Veteran L1. That would fit the fluff of them beeing grizzled veterans of many conflicts and differentiate them from other "basic HI" choices.

    With Sarmientos doctrines I actually think Nomads in general and CJC specifically should have some of the more flexible fireteam options. I agree that the focus shouldn't be on the HI but adding a Haris MB profile is not exactly spoiling us with options. It just seems strange that a sectorial with a know practice of cross-unit training would have some of the most inflexible fireteams.
     
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  11. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I've always liked the idea of Brigada. Heavy Infantry are difficult to produce, even for larger powers. But here was Corregidor, role playing as Yu Jing and producing a line of armor with professional troops. Corregidor is cool like that, even their Warband is a drilled line troop.

    Brigada might have been less advanced but they had guts and training. But now Grrls are trained with the same level of BS, delicate weaponry like the Missile Launcher, trained to take objectives, and then they also have Haris training and the tacticool visor. They're just better; more elite, better trained, and easier to deploy. It's not even a balance thing for me, they give a better impression of a drilled and mass produced heavy infantry force.

    Now between the 3 HI Cores Brigada give the impression of a Sogorat style old guard. More expensive and elite but stiff and inflexible in their training. But they don't have anything positive to reflect that. They don't have any game mechanics that reflect Corregidor either. The best description I can give of them is that they are an inferior HI force compared to the other powers because Nomads are doing their best and that used to be fine, but now Nomads are as good as anyone at deploying HI en masse, just not Corregidor.

    Can you play them and win? Sure. Are they as good as Grrls? never. Does the rest of the list make up for that? The rest of the Brigada list starts about 40 points behind, probably not. Should you play them if you like them? Yes, I will.

    But they suck, and it's not their fault.
     
  12. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I'm actually with you. If Grrls were an IA link nobody would bat an eyelid. As a Bakunin link they distort the Sectorial's internal balance.

    But MB do suffer from the same problems as ORCs, Shang Ji, Suryats and (to a lesser extent) Janissaries. So it's not like the Guija when compared to PanO TAGs (this is not a faction feature so it's designed to be boring) but it's more like how TAGs were across the board before Seasons 8 and 9. My preferred solution for all of these is to increase the number of +Tinbot profiles available, specifically allowing Hacker+Tinbot where relevant. This reduces the amount of different profiles you 'need' in a link and allows less compromise in link building (because you're already compromising by taking relatively bland HI).

    But the other problem is that Grrls do exist. They're now what people compare links to. It's part of the reason that increasingly 'power creep' is in vogue. It's concerning, however, that CB doesn't actually appear to understand the concept (see their answer to a question about it in this year's Cancon video).

    My actual opinion is 'nerf Grrls' (-1 BS, +1 PH, give the Haris to TMs), non-frenzy HI links probably need a slight buff (Tinbot specialists is probably sufficient), most if not all MI are marginally overcosted (it's ~1pt and is basically due to the CC tax most MI get), low point CC is overpriced, Combi+LSG is overpriced and either cost Chain Rifles appropriately or just get rid of the unused WB profiles.
     
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  13. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Mobile Brigada should get more interesting weapon loadouts. That's what makes Wu Ming interesting, after all. E/Maulers and AP Mines, Rocket Launchers, LSgs, SMGs, Grenade Launchers, Chain Rifles, there's loads of options. The platform is decent it's just not got anything genuinely interesting standing on it.
     
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  14. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

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    That or frenzy/impetuous link teams need to stop being a win-win. They're cheap and don't suffer for the reasons they are cheaper...
     
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  15. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Personally the whole frenzy discount in a link doesn't overly bother me. It's not that many points, if the link breaks then it is definitely a disadvantage, and I've had it come up before. I've faced against my fair share of Steel Phalax links and never thought "OMG THIS IS SO UNFAIR." Riots are very strong and efficient, it's true, but so are Hollow Men, and not because they have Frenzy.

    If Mobile Brigada had Wu Ming-esque loadouts like the Chain Rifle/SMG profile, and the Combi-Rifle+E/Mitter with AP Mines, and fireteam duo, Haris or the ability to go into other links, they'd be really popular. That's what I would consider doing to make them more viable myself. As Heavy Infantry, they're about as good as the Nomad Nation's one true full scale battlefield-class Heavy Infantry Regiment can be expected to be, but there's no reason why to make them more interesting, they can't be given more useful kit.
     
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  16. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    They should make it so they are like Scotsguard, those with camouflage cannot link and have a different profile.
    Those with Frenzy cannot link but now enjoys a slightly bigger point discount, while those without now costs more. Although this isn’t so easy to implement as some units rely on frenzy to have a “normal” cost and would need a rework, like the Domaru would be garbage tier without the frenzy discount and daturazi’s too.
     
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  17. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    There is no clean way to fix the Frenzy thing.
     
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  18. Darkvortex87

    Darkvortex87 Combat jump kamikaze

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    "If a Fireteam: core, Fireteam: haris or Fireteam: enamotarchos is composed of at least a troop with Frenzy, Impetuous or Extremely Impetuous, the whole fireteam will behave as having that skill.
    Example: a fireteam:core of Riot girls will be treated as frenzy. When one of their member kills the first enemy, that member will become Impetuous, thus the whole team will be considered Impetuous, gaining an impetuous order but suffering from the normal impetuous downsides."

    Yep, that's very difficult.

    This way, tohaa can mix and match troopers as they want and still get the perk of their mixed fireteams.
    Other armies can and will still use frenzy fireteams for what they are supposed to be, with all the pros and cons.
     
  19. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    It's difficult because many Frenzy links are currently balanced and that would unbalance them.
     
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  20. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    I'm gonna be a bit sceptical about the supposed counters here, but I'll also get into why this should be okay, so bear with me.

    E/M LGL/Spec Fire in general.
    Compared to their pointcost this isn't a problem. You can't IMM-2 or Isolate them that way with any sort of efficiency if the Link is deployed properly. Which shouldn't be the case, 6-2 Superjump gives a lot of room to deploy your Link in Total Cover to each other or simply more than 5" apart. Compared to TAGs and REMs the odds of taking down that 30-36 point HI are not exactly great. Regular HGL/LGL are even worse in Spec Fire mode. ARM 4 alone means IF you hit, 55% of those hits get ignored. A BS12 Core Linked LGL in +3 has 25.8% to cause damage vs a Hollowman dodging on 7s. That's terrible.
    For a Core Linked Hollowman with SSL2 and the LGL being in +0 that goes down to 16.9%.

    Lets remember for a second that the usual Spec Fire troop has the added benefit to strike from a position that is hard to reach. That is not the case for Hollowen. If the Spitfire or BSG got average Dodges they'll come and get that LGL within 3 Orders, notably with much better odds than Spec Fire had with the possibility of unopposed shots.

    So here's the Druze E/M LGL in +0 against a Hollowman dodging on 7s, 21.12%. That's great and all if you catch 3 guys under the template. But you might want to remember that they're REM:PRES with a WIP15 Engineer lurking behind. Isolating them without killing trades 4-5 Orders vs however many the Clockmaker needs to get them running again. Same for DTWs and regular DAM vs ARM based Specfire. They drop at some point, but putting them back up is much less Order intensive.
    That's before Tunguska has Core Linked LI that can walk past Mutts with a grin on their face. For good measure the same guys also bring you a Lt option the same Druze E/M LGL can't touch.

    Now what about CC10? Heck yeah that's a weakness. Unless we're talking proper CC troops where you need to roll a crit to beat them anyway, or when compared to a 70 point Swissguard that is much more vulnerable in CC compared to their pointcost.
    CC circumvents their effective 4W thanks to a lot of CC troops sporting massive overkill in form of EXP or Mono CCWs and readily available CDG (at the cost of extra Orders).
    It's fortunate Hollowmen either have Chaincolts or Shotguns to give them much better options than CC Attack.

    Now here's the "but!".
    They're more susceptible to chip damage overall. They have a Tinbot, but no Stealth to outright prevent Hacking. They're PH 10 which gives them reduced defense against Spec Fire, DTWs, Mines and Perimeter weapons. They can ignore Cover Mods with Superjump, but are stuck at BS13 without any Skills or Equipment improving on that outside of Link boni. Chaincolts aren't Nanopulsers or Flamethrowers and are less likely to do anything even to a low ARM CC troop while they also don't get the big template of Chainrifles, Heavy Flamers or Pulsars. There's also that REM which is a natural weakpoint to target.
    For those reasons the Link is very easy to break in its Reactive Turn for a HI Link - Warband Smoke chugger, E/M LGL, capable Hacker, life always finds a way.

    Looking at what people came up so far I'm willing to bet a full Hollowmen Core isn't going to do well for most people. One turn of rampage and that's it.
    They're probably better when spread out at the end of turn 1 so there are 5 seperate assault pieces in difficult to reach positions to deal with.
    Compared to GRRRLs, Hospitalers and even Wu Ming they're on the expensive side of things. They're also not exactly starved for shiny things that want you to spend points on them. A notable lack of Kuang Shi, Netrods or good old 5-10 points Warbands is noticeable as well.

    To add what @Zewrath said about them being powercreep for Brigada, I agree. But mostly because Brigada are so badly in need of a rework they've been powercreeped a long long time ago. Doesn't matter much what you compare them with, Achilles, a Tikbalang, Grrrls, Intruders, KBs - a lot of things make them look bad.