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Not trying to be negative here.... but...

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Zewrath, Jun 29, 2018.

  1. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Please do remember that Religios troop is not 100% a discount, since it has some effects in case of Retreat. Combine this with Securitate, and suddenly the sectorial has tools to "counter" usual weaknesses (LoL, Retreat, losing 2 regular orders to an enemy command token/not being able to spend more than one in the first turn... it essentially forces the "no coordinated orders" as the most optimal use of the Strategic token for all nomads, since I assume the hacker without puppets will be there in Vanilla a lot).
     
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  2. McNamara

    McNamara Merc Rep

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    Because you it's only one of two options in StarCo! :D
    Seriously though, the MB lets you make use of the Lt. Order. Hacker Lts. are even good to in that regard, but you can just put a MB Lt. Into Suppression Fire or Rambo it last turn. An Securitate can theoretically do it too, but the risk is way less with a MB.

    Of course that works way better in StarCo tho, where you get Emily and her CoC.
     
  3. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Not to add more fuel to the fire here but it is also pretty much the weakness I would want to have if I was trying to keep costs down.
    Now if only they had Frenzy...
     
  4. grampyseer

    grampyseer User of the "ignore" button
    Warcor

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    Because the mobile Brigada a) can gunfight b) will 100% survive a chainrifle rambo or lone critc) costs enough points to be useful in AO games like frontline d) is viable in a limited insertion format.

    These don't necessarily outweigh your points about the securitate. In my view, they provide an alternative that's -first and foremost- different.
     
  5. Civilized Barbarian

    Civilized Barbarian Praxis' Lead R&D Janitor

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    Considering they're remotes PH10 is pretty brutal, dodge on 7's. Hollow Men are just going to have to stand there and shoot back everytime, hoping to make the ARM save and retreat into cover. Spec fire on a Hollow Men link team will be more effective than usual.
     
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  6. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    They're HI.
     
  7. Civilized Barbarian

    Civilized Barbarian Praxis' Lead R&D Janitor

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    Right, but they still have g: remote presence so won't that debuff still apply?
     
  8. BloodRose

    BloodRose Member

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    No, because they are not Remotes under the classification. Its indirectly the same reason why you need a Clockmaker to bring a Chimera back.
     
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  9. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Nope. It's associated with REM not G:RP. See Karakuri and Su Jians.
     
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  10. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Jesus Christ people! No offense here but have you actually done the math on Chain Rifle vs Hollow Men? You only have 25% to actually inflict a wound against a Hollow Men that needs to fail dodge and fail his ARM4 roll. Statistically speaking you will need to blow 8 orders to put him on unconscious, that’s not a weakness, that’s only a weakness you keep making up in your own head. His only real weakness against templates involves E/Maulers and E/Marats, against everything else he will either declare shoot or reset against, as with most things in this game.
    As I said before, you’re VASTLY overselling his PH10 as a weakness. Honestly, I find it more legit to claim that getting engaged en CC is a bigger weakness than his PH attribute.
     
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  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Spec Fire EM LGLs and HGLs are legitimate weaknesses. But that's fair and manageable.

    CC without an effective skirmish screen (like Grrls and Morlocks) is a serious weakness.

    The more I look at them the more I think they're reasonably balanced against Grrls. Different strengths and weaknesses.
     
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  12. Civilized Barbarian

    Civilized Barbarian Praxis' Lead R&D Janitor

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    Sometimes I love being wrong.
     
  13. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Well, I’m glad that you took a weapon with the exact same properties, as the E/Mauler I mentioned, with only range in differences and came to the same conclusion. :joy:

    As for the HGL, it’s so rare and only on platforms everyone seems to hate for some reason so I’m not so bothered about that. Although I agree, they are both fair and manageable.
     
  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Dude. I'm agreeing with and emphasising your point.

    The reason I specifically mentioned EM LGL is the recent proliferation of X-Visor core linked EM LGLs.

    People hate HGL Lizards and Squallo? Huh... They're up there for 'best TAG' in our meta. And our PanO player is on an NCA fix at the moment...

    I do find it interesting that with the number of FOs and Hackers I haven't found a single source of Spec Fire in TJC. Relying on C+/SJ to get to hard to reach models is ok, but not great.
     
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  15. neostrider

    neostrider Well-Known Member

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    Spec fire is better IMO, but the vertigo smart missile zond is cheap and with guided practicality auto kill. Vs tags you can also aim assist and draw LOF for a good BS attack. Tunguska is probably most likely to use this drone.
     
  16. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I've had enough experience with Karakuri that 10 PH and low CC feels like a pretty significant weakness. Maybe just because I'm a flanking specialist. It is not the weakness I would pick for something.
     
  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you that it's a significant weakness. But I think it's a more manageable one than some others. It's not exploitable trivially but requires significant investment unless the Hollowmen's player makes it easy.

    I think the bigger issue is not the Hollowmen's weaknesses themselves but rather the limited tools with which to manage that weakness.

    Grrls have a known CC weakness but Morlocks let you mitigate that cheaply. This same option doesn't exist in Tunguska.

    Edit:
    As an aside, you'll note that @loricus and myself are advocating using Impact Templates/FTF CC attacks to take apart the link: not DTWs. This is where you really start to notice low PH/CC... particularly if the Attacker doesn't need to worry about SSL1/2.
     
    #57 inane.imp, Jul 1, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
    E-Warden, Zewrath, ijw and 2 others like this.
  18. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    I was mostly joking in a tongue in cheek manner, sorry if it came out in a negative way as that wasn’t my intention.
     
  19. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    The inability to effectively dodge is not to be overlooked in general. PH is underrated, as is Kinematica.
     
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  20. wellspokenman

    wellspokenman Retired Intruder

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    A TJC mirror match or Vanilla Nomads are a nightmare for these guys. CA & Ariadna can eat them up as well. They will be problematic for some factions to deal with, but I don't think they will turn out to be the next big thing. Honestly, I am way more interested in the Perseus or Grenzer Haris and a Grenzer/Securitate fire team.
     
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