Isn't that like at least 3 orders? Why is 3 shots with a Grenade Launcher NOT just as efficient? Edit: I am not saying that should be the go to way, but I believe that Infinity too nuanced a game to have only a single solution. I feel that the desire to always find the "optimal" and dismiss any other approaches is limiting for Tactical discussion.
Definitely also a solution. I guess we're talking about different things, because I talking about why I find tags good - order efficient to move up the board while removing hard aro pieces to bring specialists/big gun/high point value/survivable unit to a place you want. Shooting a pitcher, getting spotlight on and then shooting missiles requires likely 2-3 different, low wound pieces, and a minimum of 3 orders, and doesn't do anything else except kill the Kamau and get the repeater in position. I imagine it's probably more like 3-6 Orders: 2ish orders for the repeater to get into position/pitcher to land (sneaking moran up, shooting a pitcher), 2ish orders for Spotlight (50% to hit assuming WIP 15 Interventor), 1-2 orders for missile (70% chance to wound). The Tag probably needs 3 orders too (at 37% chance to wound), but she could do it one. I find guided missile a great counterattack piece if people get themselves spotlighting in my repeater network, but I prefer my active attacks to also move directly towards completing the mission as well as attacking.
The upper threshold on what that can threaten is far higher when you are whacking something with an AP+EXP weapon rather than a single damage 15 hit. It's also far less jank than trying to roll a BS5-8 grenade. Average TAG it's 44% for 1W, 26% for 2, and 7% for 3.
Lower failure rate, and lower risk especially as you can often do it with out exposing a model. could also for go the missile and just drop whitenoise on the Grenzer/Bolt/Kamau's head and just ignore them, 1 less order, one less point of failure (but admittedly you have to do it every turn). Attach a specialist to a vostok, better, more reliable,more resistant to hacking (not a TAG so cant get possesed, can be attached to tinbot), or just one one of our many skirmisher specialists much better to risk a 20point zero than a 80+ point tag because a HD shotgun decided to slap the pilot with a DTW after it dismounted. Thing is those low survivable units (though two of which are deceptively durable) dont need to expose them selves to anything to carry out the tactic. The tactic is viable at a lot more than just that one ARO piece, has use for counter attacking like you pointed out, and most importantly has a far larger psychological impact than a TAG. With a handful of exceptions, TAGs don't really weigh that heavily as a threat as they almost all need to engage like every other threat, on the ground and very predictably, and can be dealt with incredibly easily by just taking a list as I've found most have the means to incidentally counter most MBTs for low investment. Or deploy and play in such a way it's practically worthless as it will almost always end up fighting in it's +0 to -3 band. The missile bot is almost always an existential threat to their most important pieces, never exposes itself, almost always buried deep in your defensive positions, can strike anything from anywhere fairly reliably, with very few counters (desperate AD drops and camo being it).
Categorising a main battle TAG as a threat rather than as support for threats definitely explains the differences in opinion in this discussion :)
Yes it does. I feel like most of the Nomad TAGS are better as support for a threat, rather than being the threat itself. Although this is largely based on the fact that all Nomad TAGs are manned and cannot be safely repaired. Also Nomad TAGS are pretty basic, having a big gun and good armour, but nothing else going for them compared to other factions where it is more common to see Camoflage, Mimetism, Climbing Plus, Super Jump, Hidden Deployment, Lieutenant options, etc.
No offense, but it's quite amazing to hear someone saying something completely different from mine. It makes me wonder, in which gaming environment or metas you are playing. Szally got a discount from N3 to N4(like 90 to 72), which is HUGE, and it's a beast with BS 14 and HRMC, 8/9/3 resilience. And "the difficulties of facing troopers with Mimetism" is universal to any troopers who do not have MSVs, I think. If you feel like your main attacker is going to have a hard time dealing with them, then you can support it with Intruders, warbands, dtws. After playing several games with Szally, I feel like it does perfectly good enough what it can, and should do. I don't think it should also handle mimetism and camo troopers perfectly well, it's an acceptable peculiarity.
considering that one of the main counter arguments was them as a threat, countering on those grounds seemed reasonable. we also have better options as fire support/troubleshooter options anyway, especially when you are either; A) going up against one of the few dominating and apex aro pieces, where its not going to have good odds at clearing it, and are better off just ignoring it (or applying vostok) and moving on. or B) there are no AROs and it's all under a marker and/or dug in tight such that you are engaging in such tight quarters that again you have really shit odds at the engagement, so you are better off leveraging other stuff to deal with it (Sombras, Vostok, puppets, etc.) both of these conditions pretty much mean the TAG is either doing nothing, or wasting orders on fights it has no place taking. However, tables with little to no terrain higher than S7 (which i have seen a disturbing amount of in tournament photos), or are also fairly terrain sparse means they have a chance to perform well (if you go first so they dont get either bricked or used to DTW your DZ) providing they dont get gunned down by everything that can see it. Playing at 300 points where there are less access to tools to slow it down could also lead to them being effective, but that would mean playing at 300 and all the problems that entails. Both as a primary attacker and support fire piece I have found it under whelming and under performing, it often ends up in a situation where in order make use of the points investment it needs to take awful odds fights and burn a lot of orders getting into position to so and more often than not it gets ripped out for more things like Sombras, Prowlers, warbands, REMS and other things better suited. The only TAGs I have managed to get any actual use out of are the Zeta and Gecko. The former because it get into weird angles and set up in dominating positions to actually make use of its superior stats and range, and the latter because it is cheap and works great in those tighter confines when moving to support another piece as well as being much less vulnerable to tag counter measures.
Ahh that's right - you play in Triumph's little Tasmanian meta, right? You actually are playing a different game to everyone else in the conversation, so fair enough - I have near-zero experience with 400pt games because nobody else in the rest of the country plays regularly at that points level except for the occasional meme format event Melbourne runs some years. Shine on you crazy diamonds :)
Question: do you have the option to get more S7+ blocking Terrain? I am just surprised that TAGs are such a detriment in your experience. It also seems like you are facing more prominent ARO pieces which can stand up to burst 5. What lists/tools are you finding most successful at 300pts?
I think he is referring to seeing pictures of alot of other people playing with bad or insufficient amounts of terrain rather than himself.
I agree the vostock is superb, especially in sectorials where you can a run specialist with it. It does lack the long range firepower, immediate toughness of 8 arm and 3 STR, and template weapons but gets climbing plus, AP immunity, rem pres, and mimetism which is great for hunting non-msv2 pieces. I didn't realise you were talking about playing at 400 points, I've never done that so can't really contribute further to that discussion. I have only been discussing 300 point ITS. Do you guys play ITS as well? I hear the 20x20 is/was pretty popular, but I've never tried it or seen it played. Out of interest what do consider to have a better chance at efficiently surviving the successful removal of an apex aro piece that you can't ignore? (Other than guided as we've talked about) I'm assuming a linked kamau equivalent, so MSV, mimetism, and sixth sense. I can't really can't think of any but maybe I'm missing something here. Not to derail the thread further, what are the issues you find with 300 points that it solved with 400? The only time I've seen 400 is in N3 as Limited Insertion, to give competitor drive to play TAGs, but that was before all the N4 buffs (Tac Aware, crit changes, 15 unit cap, price drop). It's really cool to hear about other people's metas :)
Kamau aren't that scarey, just get into it's 16 band and gun it down. its the bolt and grenzer that are always on 19's that are the problem. And I'm pretty sure they killed all the baiting shenanigans that you would typically use to deal with them because people cried that their super snipers stopped working (though I may be wrong there, the last few faqs have been a shit show so I haven't payed a huge amount of attention to them). Best bet is to use something like a camo attack piece (Sombra, Prowler, etc.) or AD assault piece (Hellcat, tomcat, Raoul, etc.) to sneak around behind and kill their friends then kill them. could also bum rush it with something carrying eclipse. 300 is basically rocket tag, where who ever goes first wins by crippling the opponent as there is virtually no redundancy in lists especially when you are sinking points into solving the game's gear checks. 400 gives you more points to cover more gear checks, allows for redundancy in assault pieces and support for them, meaning you don't get crippled by someone stage diving your one or two attack pieces, or other elements you need to complete the mission. 400 also naturally dissuades the uber aggressive play style as it's not as effective. The increase of SWC also allows for other factions that aren't great to bad at 300 become useful to good at 400 (CHA benefits a lot here). @Triumph has a more extensive write up on the topic.
