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Nomads in N4

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    I agree with. you about the inaccuracy of a broad brush, and the problem with inadvertently blessing some profiles that were already balanced towards the strong side. But I do think CB do it pretty well and err on the side of caution. Bolts are decent now, not overpowered. Even Intruders are still balanced with the FD1 buff.

    The opposing issue is bloat on single profiles (tons and tons of inherent rules), but you are right that those rules are there regardless. Being able to sweep or add them from whole classes without having to modify every profile has been a cool part of the ITS system.

    Because we're talking about a rule that balances out the inherent problems of Manned TAGs, as well as the power difference in existing profiles. Keeping the Regular order for ejected pilots matches their greater vulnerability, as well as the fact that only the more advanced (ie non-piloted) TAGs get stuff like TO, MSV2, ODD, etc.

    Fatality1 and specialists are actually well-balanced as well, IMO. They were needed to keep TAGs' power in line with their increasing vulnerability as new infantry troops with anti-armor weapons, EM weapons, etc. are added. TAGs rest in about the same power tier as they used to, only their abilities are more reflective of increased firepower and focused force (plus not automatically losing at specialist-heavy scenarios due to sinking 1/3rd of the army points into firepower).
     
  2. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    My example was more refering to the rumor about tactical awareness, not your suggestion rule. But I agree mostly with you.

    What I cannot agree is with bolts and about CB. If bolts are ok now, almost all MI is overpriced now. I hope they use that new formula on the other MI. And about CB, better we leave it from here
     
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  3. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
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    Also doesn't help those not playing ITS format too.
     
  4. Del S

    Del S Nomadball

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    OTOH if you're not playing ITS, you'll more than likely be playing casual games and can just House Rule something. But yeah, an ITS patch to an issue doesn't solve the problem overall.
     
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  5. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
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    Think there's some big non-its meta's in Eastern Europe/Russia that are heavy into yams/20*20 etc. Fixing the problem at source is always better, but ITS patches are at least functional if a bit crude
     
  6. Riktikticheck

    Riktikticheck New Member

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    Well, I haven't really played much of infinity yet, so I am by no means an authority on what is working and what is not, but I'll put the one thing I felt a bit sad about in Corregidor after the face-lift we got.

    It feels a bit bat to ask for more, because we got a lot, and I have always had the mentality of trying to work with what I get, but I feel like the Daktari wildcard trooper was a lost opportunity to make more use of the Tombcat.
    I would love to use more of those guys, and as they lack the scary weapon options, I don't really see why they could not have been the wildcard option instead.
    You might even basically move over the Lieutenant option from the hellcat roster to the tombcats, because even with 1 swc, I would consider it, if i can put it into a link somewhere, to provide a flamer to defense etc.

    And you should just remove the hellcat lieutenants swc cost if you want someone to even consider ever using it, or just remove the Loss of Lieutenant, when it is off the board, but that seems a bit too much.
    Or just remove that particular profile, so new players are not drawn into wondering about the uses for such a thing, until they find themselves in LoL on the first turn.
     
  7. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    tomcats are good where they are IMHO, they are pure specialists. The only thing I miss there is climbin plus for the zondcat, beign climbing plus one of the identity tropes from our remotes.

    hellcats on the other side... they should loose the lieutenant option, yes, is absurd as it is, but I don't see the wildcard in ther (they become expensive and worse wildcats when they don't use AD). They could instead swap the 0-G option to superjump, and make the 0-g permanent (fluf thing), that way the option gets real, in theme and keeps useful. But the supposedly best AD of the sphere, are at the moment pretty bland. I don't know if, even beign wildcards, I would put them in a link as they are now.
     
  8. Del S

    Del S Nomadball

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    Don't give AD wildcard. Instead, give Hellcats a Fireteam:Duo option. Or Haris.

    And then, probably as a broader n4 change, either a special coordinated order rule letting AD form the team while landing, or needing to spend a second token afterwards. The former feels better for flow to stop people just landing one at a time then forming the team to save a token, but maybe a team landing should cost 2.
     
  9. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Wildcats just need love. Lower SWC costs would be a good start.
     
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  10. kesharq

    kesharq Lucky Dice-Roller

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    And Wildcats need a resculpt! :) I have to use Spektrs to avoid those tiny miniatures.
     
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  11. Penemue

    Penemue Watcher
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    Me and my one-track mind don't want to let the Grenzer be forgotten...

    Cross-faction comparisons are often poo-poo'd, but I think it's something we can start.

    Grenzer / Kamau - 4-2 instead of 4-4, Arm 3 instead of Arm 1. MSV1/Courage VS Aquatic, Mimetism, Shock Immune, Stealth
    Grenzer / Bolt - WIP 13 instead of 12, ARM 3 instead of 2, MSV1/Courage VS Veteran 1/Bioimmunity.

    Grenzer is easily 5 points more than either of these. To me, this means that:
    ARM / MSV1 is valued more highly than Mimetism and MOV.
    ARM / MSV1 / WIP is valued more highly than Veteran 1 /Bioimmunity.

    I wish I could chalk the increase up to the light flamethrower, but it doesn't seem to be it. The Combi / LSG Bolt is 20, whereas the BS Grenzer is 23. The Kamau doesn't have a shotgun option to compare to.

    Conversely, the Kamau MSR (with MSV2) and Grenzer MSR are both 32. This means that Mimetism/MSV2/4-4 MOV/ARM 1 are worth the same as MSV1/4-2 MOV/ARM3.

    I think that's nuts.

    Some possible fixes I would make to the Grenzer (this doesn't mean all of them):
    a) give the poor bastard Mimetism.
    b) give all Grenzers LFT.
    c) give Grenzers FD1 (on top of ITS rule?).
    d) make them 3-5 points cheaper across the board.

    Thoughts?
     
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  12. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Comparing them to kamau isn't really an option as Kamau are elite LI and not MI, If you were to compare them to anything it'd be Bagh Mari, Moiras, Briscards, and Rodoks, all of which the Grenzer compares poorly with the exception of Moiras (who are in a similar position).

    Mimetism while always good is often just a lazy way to fix/buff something.
    All profiles that aren't a special weapon or shotgun have the LFT and they already have a half decent side arm in the Breaker pistol.
    While good the extra FD1 breaks them when you aren't doing a haris as they are either deploying far ahead of the securitate that you aren't putting them in that team and the same goes for the interventor. As they are missile launcher and MSR platforms you don't want that in the middle of the table which is again another skill you pay for and do nothing with.
    Reducing their cost through a re-balancing of the cost of ARM and knocking a point or two CC off would be the best way to go.
     
  13. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

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    Kamau MSV2 (and when someone says "Kamau", it's that one with 99% certainty) is probably a bad profile to compare anything against, no matter what type. It's just too good.

    That said - I feel that Rodoks or Bagh-Mari are not even at the average power level of their respective sectorials, and fare even worse in vanilla. Rebalancing Grenzers through ARM and CC costs might get them to the level of other MIs - but that's a low bar. MIs that see regular play have some unique capabilities - like Yadu, who are basically HI, and Intruder, who is probably overpowered; but the majority of MIs are divided into "but I can take a cheaper LI that does the same" and "but I can take a HI for these points" categories.

    P.S. Poor, poor Nisse.
     
    #173 Gunmage, Sep 2, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
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  14. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    This is what we call the Moira Problem.

    To me it often feels like these type of MI(and MI in general) are meant to combat swiss army knives that are better at combat then their LI counterparts and carry a wide array for tools to deal with stuff, I.E. DTWs, Visors, D-charges and half decent secondary weapons. This leads to to cost nearly if not as much as budget HI.
     
  15. Penemue

    Penemue Watcher
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    I don't necessarily agree, as they can't really be compared to cross-faction things - so really, any such comparison is bound to be problematic in the first place. Why not push it?

    Yeah, their ARM and MSV1 are what is driving them up. Visors seem to be priced more than the evasion abilities they see through, which is odd.
     
  16. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Because while cross faction comparison are questionable to begin with, if you are going to do it it may as well be with its counterpart from another faction.

    Hopefully this is something that is looked into in the edition change, bring the cost of mimetism and camo up a point or two while bringing visors down a point or two.
     
  17. Penemue

    Penemue Watcher
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    I think similarities are fine, since you're not going to get close enough to make anyone happy. In any case, they definitely need to readjust evasion abilities VS evasion detection abilities - especially when things like Mimetism / Camo / ODD can spam and easily thwart 1-2 visors.
     
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  18. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    But you also dont want to invalidate those tools or counter them too well otherwise you end up making some factions unplayable/ ignore their primary advantage. Reducing the cost disparity is probably the fairest way to do so.
     
  19. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I know this is a broken record but you should be playing with low vis zones.
     
  20. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Backlogged Painter

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    @loricus is right. Visors don't do anything most of the time if you ignore the terrain rules and only play with boxes that come with the begginer rule set.

    If you start using things like low vis zones and saturation zones a number of dead profiles come alive.

    For instance I really like grenzer and riot grrl MLs, even in Vailla. A grenzer link sitting in a low vis zone suddenly has mimitism, and ignores those mods on their target and part of camo/odd too.

    I agree visors are probably a bit too expensive for "standard" play that omits viz zones (or at least has very few of them.) But if you bother to liven up your table some it makes a huge difference.
     
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