1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Nomads in N4

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Penemue

    Penemue Watcher
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    99
    Yeah. I think Gunmage missed that.

    I like some of the proposed changes to Tunguska, though. It seems like the sectorial occupies a design space between older factions and the wave of wildcards that came out.

    I think that, as Modock pointed out, TJC needs a few tweaks. Not all of them, but certainly something to give it some oomph.

    1) Give it some sort of middle line. A few Hecklers and a Spektr don't create nearly enough of a roadblock for competitive button-pushing play.
    2) Grenzers - argh.
    3) Lieutenants are obvious (this is ok, but it is a weakness).
    4) Frozen Puppetmaster is cute, but when Proxies set an outrageous precedent...
    5) Wildcards. It feels like most factions after Tunguska got Wildcards, and TJC was left to sit in this weird world of cutesey mixed links (many of which are great, but...).

    It bares repeating:

    Grenzers - argh.
     
    Kiwi Steve and Modock like this.
  2. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    417
    Likes Received:
    451
    Which they shouldn't, that rule is a crutch that promotes lazy and brainless play.

    A Spektr FO would be around that mark, starts up the table and is unlikely to get killed until you choose to use it.

    A well designed army should have weaknesses, as a trade off for it's strengths. It's just that lately the top tier releases don't have these weaknesses because reasons leading them to be obnoxious idiot button factions that can be difficult to deal with and as a result are poorly designed.

    The masters are fine (though I wish I could declare at least a dodge with them), they are meant to be our attempt to replicate proxies so naturally they are going to worse. it's just that proxies are so absurdly powerful that skews everything.

    Both grenzers and moiras need a redesign, they cost waaaaay more than their counterparts in other factions, and cost as much as the HI within their relevant sectorial.
     
    Savnock and Penemue like this.
  3. MattyG2787

    MattyG2787 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2019
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    12
    I’d love to see hacking become more active in general. It’s fine that ariadna is all low tech but surely everyone uses comms devices. A lot of high tech guns and visors floating around as well


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  4. Modock

    Modock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    371
    Likes Received:
    897
    Not to be nitpicking but actually no a zondnautika FO would be considerably cheaper. Forward observer is usually 1 point,
    Spektr FO is 32 points, a zondnautika FO bording shotgun would be 25, a combi version 1 point more.
     
    #144 Modock, Aug 26, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
  5. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    246
    No, I'm aware of that. But I think that the lack of units able to deploy farther than FD1 was a conscious design choice to encourage more agressive tactics in early game - move your attackers up, and set them in good position for reactive fire, something like that; and I doubt that any possible future changes will alter that concept. What I was thinking about was less about controlling midfield, and more of making getting into your deployment zone harder for the enemy.
     
    Savnock likes this.
  6. Modock

    Modock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    371
    Likes Received:
    897
    Like Varuna, weaker midfield but one of the best aro game in Infinity...Kamau, helots, jammers...
     
  7. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    457
    As @Modock said, an spectr FO is more expensive as a supossed zondnautica FO. Some people tend to forget that spectr are not a cheap TO skirmisher (is not too expensive, but it is clearly not in the cheap side).

    having weaknesses is ok. Having so much is not. TJC has most the típical nomad weaknesses: medium punch, not much toughness, not much of infowar (not cyberwar they are different things, IRL and in the lore) and no leadership management. At least, they dont have SWC tax. But on the other side, they have some extra, like the high cost (with not so much hi-tech to back it or cheap stick orders to compensate), the lack of cheap warbands, the scarce ways to deal with the enemy cheap warbands, obvious lieutenants, no MSV2 and not much fire against TO/ODD. I'm pretty sure any other of the new sectorials have so many weaknesses at the same time in any list. Mayve IA can bring as much

    puppetmasters are ok...if your enemy is to forget their weakness or didn't though about them, but experimented players do not need too much resources to deal with them. We can debate a lot of, I'm sure there are threads about them. But just because posthumans are broken good doesn't mean these are ok, They just need that the master could ARO, but if he does, the puppets can't that order, or that even could loose the fireteam or something related.
     
    Modock likes this.
  8. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    392
    Likes Received:
    472
    Here's another request to please share them here.

    Seeing it drop to 0.5 in Tunguska at least would be balanced still.

    I use them pretty often because I am a big fan of Spec Fire and Smart Missile as answers to things that are hard to crack with direct attack (hello Kamau linked sniper, TO snipers, etc.). It works well in vanilla Nomad forces with tons of midfield presence, HD+, etc.

    Used one this weekend to AD2 in with the intention of marking a VIRD Kamau etc. link for some Lizard HGL bombardment, ended up just shooting stuff instead to better effect (made the Meteor seem a priority in his active turn to eat his orders). I really love those bots!
     
    #148 Savnock, Aug 26, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
    Modock likes this.
  9. Penemue

    Penemue Watcher
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    99
    This is exactly it, I think.
     
  10. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    997
    Likes Received:
    918
    Better not mate, I've got a warcor tag on my forum nick so if any of it is accurate, people will accuse me of leaking. Have a scan out there, there's some good rumours regarding tags
     
    Savnock likes this.
  11. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    392
    Likes Received:
    472
    Right, good point sorry!
     
    csjarrat likes this.
  12. Smiler

    Smiler Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2017
    Messages:
    179
    Likes Received:
    315
    I'm sure I saw someone posting about TAGs getting Tactical Awareness as standard and keeping the Fat1, not sure if there's anything else @csjarret has seen though
     
    csjarrat and Savnock like this.
  13. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2017
    Messages:
    1,111
    Likes Received:
    1,576
    Or they could stop patching the game and rework them so they are worth taking
     
    Hecaton likes this.
  14. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    457
    that supposedly is going to happen in N4... not sure how they will do it. TAGs getting Tactical Awareness, or wathever patch will be for the next ITS, if is the same fix to a gecko and to a cutter, then the gap between cheap tags and expensive ones will remain the same, but the TAGs who deformed the meta time ago were all expensive ones. I hope they don't overdo again and mage too powerful the same factions again (specially when they are the strongest at the moment)
     
  15. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    392
    Likes Received:
    472
    Soooo I wrote a TAG-heavy ruleset/mission in N2, where all the TAGs had an extra Irregular order specific to that unit (ie Tac Awareness). It made them a lot more balanced (especially given that anti-TAG weapons were a given on the random infantry left on the board, even though 70% of your points had to be TAGs 200 points of infantry with panzerfausts will screw you up).

    I really hope they do that.
     
  16. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    392
    Likes Received:
    472
    Another obvious solution is to have pilots from Manned TAGs still provide regular orders after they punch out of the TAG (and maybe be a bit better equipped, although the Nomad pilots are already pretty badass).

    Do you think that would help balance things against the currently uber TAGs, @Armihaul ?

    Considering that the TAGs we have to worry about are all Remote Presence (Cutter, Avatar, Marut, etc.)., that would seem to make sense. And there's no reason an ejected pilot should have less presence in the tactical net (ie regular orders) than a random grunt.
     
  17. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    457
    that could work to make them different and balance a few things between manned and unmanned TAGs at the same time. I think is worth testing it. But I'm affraid that making the pilots specialists was the first try in that regard, and CB ended creating those crabbots after the complaints, so if there were to exist a rule like that, I'm sure CB would apply it to crabbots after the complaints again.

    Also, I can not assess which impact would be to maintain the order, my pilots have never survived (they end going from 1 or 2 STR to dead directly, so I got not much oportunities to test their use). I think it could have been better if CB decided to bring some of the nice habilities/equipment to manned TAGs instead of saving those options only for the remote ones.
     
  18. Lucian

    Lucian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    267
    I'd say Manned TAGs should be immune to possession since pilots use manual controls to operate TAG and I don't see how the TAG can walk and shoot on its own. If they are intended to be posessed and walk on their own, then manned TAG could have an extra Dogged-like state with reduced stats like in POS-state, say if a pilot is unconcious the TAG AI can take over and somehow still be able to fight.
    It can be somewhat balanced with a revorked Expell which would not only dismount pilot but also lock down TAG for a turn or untill it resets.
     
    #158 Lucian, Aug 27, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
    Del S likes this.
  19. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    457
    just to expand my point of view, an example with other troop type: Medium infantry

    a few months ago, we had bolts, which people said they were bad. Also, some people say that Moiras and Prowlers are underperforming too. CB tryed to fix this with some rules like advance deploiment. That could (or not) work in some cases like wildcats or moiras, but was absurd for prowlers, and was a good boost to some MI like MK12 SinEaters, and even with that, later we saw a fix to bolts' profile, but they still had access to the "general fix". What I mean is that a new hability is not a solution, but to fix the profiles one by one.

    If TAGline missions, specialist for all (but operators, nobody thinks about operators), and Fatatily1 were not enought, how do we know that adding more rules will be?
     
    Modock likes this.
  20. Del S

    Del S Nomadball

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2017
    Messages:
    918
    Likes Received:
    2,078
    I have some n4 dreams on the mini front. A new Corrigedor starter, with mostly the current minis, except the hacker is replaced with a fourth wildcat. The wildcats are shotty, spit, hrl, rifle/hacker. And the intruder? Oh, he has two sets of arms so he replaces the hmg intruder as well.

    The hellcat is a hellcat. Maybe two arm sets as well, shotty or rifle.

    Or one of those five cats is actually a SMG Mobile Brigada...Ideally just in time for the SMG to have been nerfed!