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Nomads in N4

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    there is no use. Top factions ask for new shinny, better things and its ok (and they get them). But nomads cannot, even if they are not a top tier faction anymore (not vainilla, not any of their sectorials, only if we take out the real top tiers). We nomads have to use our brains in theorical yet unpractical and unrealistic options.

    white noise is our best option, but it will not apply any negative mod against those 4+linked-MSV, the same way smoke doesn't against any 4+linked trooper. And using the moran+white noise+koala bug... well, is a bug in the game, but if that bug with an hsien is nasty and should be addressed by CB, the same should be applied to WN+Koala (and might be in n4)

    an absurd joke there: an ODD intruder would be cheaper than a camo intruder. Jumping from mimetism to ODD seems cheaper than from mimetism to Camo.
     
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  2. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    Doesn't sound great. I know that are normal chances, but this weekend I had (again) 55+% to wound something and 38+% to finish it off (2 wounds) but the result was: my model was crit of the board.

    And it's not the (physical) dice, those were computer dice on TTS :flushed:
     
  3. Hisey

    Hisey Well-Known Member

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    So, I figured I'd throw it out there, I'm not sure where the 35% and 21% chances came from, but if you successfully coordinate 4 jaguars into a Kamau, the one he responds to has a 8.57% chance of wounding the Kamau, but the other 3 that need 8's to hit have a 78.4% chance to land 1 or more hits, while a single panzerfaust has a 87.5% chance to wound the Kamau, making for a 68.6% chance to wound the Kamau or better, giving you a total compounded probability of killing a Kamau with a coordinated order of 4 jaguar panzerfausts of 71.29%

    I'd bank a lot in infinity on 71.29% odds.
     
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  4. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    @Hisey target number 8 has a 40% chance to hit.
     
  5. Hisey

    Hisey Well-Known Member

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    @loricus yes, and the probability of 1 or more successes in 3 shots with a 40% probability of success on each shot; P(X≥1) = 78.4%
     
  6. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Do you see where I got my number from now?
     
  7. Ghost87

    Ghost87 Well-Known Member

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    He would just dodge until you run out of ammo. Still risky but with better odds I think.
     
  8. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    the odds seem good there.... but also seems unrealistic to me to place 4 jaguars in a way that all 4 can see a linked dude, from good range for all 4, but nobody else from the enemy list sees them, even more being them the 4 expensive ones, which are also less fielded than the chain one because of its overal use
     
  9. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    I'm going to have to agree with @Armihaul here, it is an often unrealistic expectation to be able to pull this off reliably. The chances that you can deploy all 4 jags in such a way that that they can see the target means; you are either really over committing resources with very little use beyond this to one area, your opponent screwed their deployment, or the table was setup incredibly poorly and allowed for a VIRTUALLY unassailable doom tower.

    This is something I have both tested and discussed a fair bit with @Callum in regards to the joke that is trying to use coordinated grunt snipers in a similar manner.

    You are far better off trying to leverage Tsyklons, Tomcats, Hellcats, Massacre and Bandits (quite possibly the best option) to either engage it or it's friends from unexpectedangles.
     
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  10. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Then I get two chances without taking casualties, he's essentially dodging two EXP HMG attacks, those chances are terrible.

    That's why I suggest the use of other units such an Intruders, Geckos, Lupe and even AD units. Much easier to pull off and a lower investment in to the list as you are likely to have those units already.
     
  11. Hisey

    Hisey Well-Known Member

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    No...?

    I completely agree, the likelihood of being able to actually be in a position to do this is extremely low. But people were throwing numbers around, so I figured I would make sure those were accurate. And while it may be extremely difficult to coordinate a shot specifically with 4 jaguar panzerfausts, it might not be as difficult to just coordinate with any 4 models, in which case the odds would be similar, though obviously not exact.
     
  12. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

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    I will throw in my two cents in case anyone from CB reads this.

    I'm playing Nomads since late N2. Right now Vanilla Nomads are really great to play. Arrival of Tunguska filled all the holes Vanilla had. Now we can go offensive, denefsive, Camo Spam, Bikes, Knives, from behind, from up front - anything!

    I don't need anything to change from Vanilla perspective. Sure, some profiles are dead, but whatever - Vanilla is good as is. That being said, I wish for readjustment of costs and SWC across sectorials, where absence of some units is really frustrating.

    Bakunin: Is strong and has a lot of great, very well costed profiles. The only things to rebalance is MI's. To be exact all Reverends and Sin-Eaters. These should drop in points. 1W Mimetism/ODD 30pts+ troops with no Dogged/NWI is sad to look upon. 10% of your points total to be sniffed with a single template hit. Very Glass Canon with no room for bad rolls.

    Corregidor: I have a lot of thoughts about Corregidor, that I already expressed at WGC in response to Carlota Kowalsky post. Here's the quote:

    Tunguska: Seem like a missed idea. The army just doesn't feel complete. Needs a cheap warband'ish unit to be able to defend all the expensive, vulnerable stuff. Sure there are some archetypes that work well in certain formats (like Hollow Men Link), still Tunguska struggles and is very vulnerable to enemy Alpha Strike and even incoming Warbands. It doesn't look like it, cause there's a lot of highly specialized, durable units - but they are all expensive and once enemy starts killing - the domino effect kicks in. Tunguska is the only Nomad sectorial unable to come back from a loss of key units.

    My fix would be to:
    Add +1 AVA to Transductor.
    Add a cheap (not necessarily cheap cheap - just 10 points) regular warband, or 5-6pts. irregular warband.

    On top of that Grenzers are difficult to justify (with some exceptions as usual). They are far too expensive for what they can survive, just like Reverends, Sin-Eaters and all the similar MI stuff.
    Szalamandra is good depending on the overall N4 TAGs changes. I do believe Command Token repair re-roll should be extended to all TAGs, not just Remote Presence, or even taken away from Remote Presence TAGs and given to regular ones instead with no additional cost readjustment to even the odds.


    So - when you look at this, the most problematic are 1W overcosted MI's. Let's be clear here: Intruders, Prowlers, Hellcats are all in a very good place. That's because they are protected by Marker States, or starting off the table. This totally justifies the high cost. Grenzers, Reverends, Wildcats in the other hand are (with few exceptions) very hard to justify at all. I mean - sure I know people who would say these units are good and they like fielding them. Ok - for me these are DEAD PROFILES most of the time. Thus I hope CB makes it work. Makes these worth fielding.

    I have spoken.
    [​IMG]
     

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  13. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    If I had total freedom I would remove standard Brigada core and update them with a focus on being unlinked. Some active focused build, don't need the ML to become better in an Alguacil core. Alone, Duo with Geckos and Haris with Wildcats would be where I'd like to see them. I would have to see how N4 and N4's ITS is to make any specific ideas, but I'd rather have functions other than winning F2F rolls as the MI and REM should be the main gunners in Nomads.

    But I wouldn't hope for anything like that, I only say anything cuz it's my day off and there's nothing to talk about.
     
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  14. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Can we also overhaul the old SWC costing on some of the things in CJC, primarily the tomcats and wildcats.

    That alone should fix the viability of the WC's as we're pretty sure most MI are now getting 4-4 Mov (even if the slow arguement is stupid as all hell), they're incredibly cheap and dont really need much else.
     
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  15. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    They still have the standard issue of offensive fireteams hitting all the weaknesses of fireteams at once. The Haris will become very good thou.
     
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  16. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    that sounds more like a balancing factor for a very strong mechanic than a downside
     
  17. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    nomad MI is in a strange possition, CB has almost didn't check on them this edition. All of it (And I mean, all, including intruders) are costed too high (not much, but if they were in other factions, they will be cheaper, or have access to more/better skills at the same cost after their sectorials were revised). But at the same time, some of it are used and seen by others as "very good", but that perception usually comes because "they are used, so they must be good" thinking, which is wrong.
    • Intruders are played mostly because they are the only MSV2, and in previous editions they were one of the best hitters in the game (so that memory remains), but while they are good (don't get me wrong, they are), they are not so extremelly good anymore thanks to all those overpowered fireteams which they have to face, but ignore most of the intruder advantages. Also, it has the old WIP=BS cost formula, which is not used anymore, and some units got changed when CB revised their sectorial, but the intruder's points were unchanged (if it were BS14 WIP13 with that formula, it would cost the same, but its performance wouln't).
    • Moiras and Sineaters were costed when religious troop was a "pay for" skill, but now is a "reduction cost" skill, so they need to go down.
    • Wilcats were the example of cheap, basic and reliable MI, I've been hearing since their release that they were the best unit in that spot, and that are too cheap, and I still hear that, while at the same time, that people say that bolts are bad and overcosted...beign bolts "cheaper" than wildcats (compare the spitfire options in both cases, and their skills). Wildcat HRL's SWC is from previous edition, when asault pistol was 0,5 in most units, but in this edition became 0 for most of them.
    • Similar to it, spitfire prowlers's SWC is because the spitfire+infiltration combination..but MI pay 0.5 more SWC than LI because they are supposed to have access to better skills.... well, prowler pays 1 SWC for that. (same can be applied to sineater HMG, but I see a balancing factor there)
    • hellcats are in the best position IMO at the moment, their problem is that their special skill is not so interesting (it was tested as a +3phis, but changed to what we have). They are plain, which also makes them "cheap", even if in the lore they are one of the best AD troops.
     
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  18. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    The issue is that factor not being present on defensive fireteams. If anyone can do it it will be Wildcats, thou. No. 2 and no weak members. The question is, are you causing them a problem, or just making it easier to deplete your orders?
     
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  19. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Depends how far forward you push them/ cover and support them.

    Defensive fireteams offer a lot of power for a proportionally low cognitive load or skill requirement, with minimal downsides and are often wheeled out as to why they need and overhaul.

    When I did a 6 month stint with SP, one thing I learnt was how to maneuver and apply assault fireteams well, this was furthered when I went back to StarCo., TJC and reworked CJC.

    It pretty much boiled down to a few main points;

    1. Over extension is death, basically never go past the midway line or at the very least never end your turn over there like a TAG you must pull back to a spot where you control the approach vectors and know that there is a good chance you arent going to get ambushed or surrounded. This lesson took the longest to learn thanks to a chronic case of stubbornness and tunnel vision. Though in the case of things like Hollowmen just being to get out of this entirely by hiding on a roof they probably can get away with pushing hard.

    2. They are not an army unto themselves, this leads on from the previous point in that a fireteam without support WILL get surrounded and picked off so when you move back the approach vectors need to covered by other defensive pieces, in CJC this takes the form of morans, bandits, a firesupport haris and REMs, your opponent should have to chew through those before they get to your B2 LFTs and stun grenade wielding fireteam.

    3. Bonuses are secondary, utility is primary. While having a full core's worth of bonuses is great a BS13 B5 spitfire is marginally worse than a BS16 one, casualties are to be expected and some team members will be picked off from things (this can mitigated through the inclusion of linked doctors, all hail Machoan king necromancer) so an assault teams needs to do other things such as integrate multiple specialist types so as to carry out the most amount of classified and mission objectives.
    This is why one of my go to highly classified lists contains an assault team. I view them as a compact delivery mechanism for things to win the mission while including a few good guns, with the mindset of the bonuses are nice while I have them.

    4. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. This ties back into point 2, you need to run as many orders as you can through it every turn, more often than not you're better off running orders through other stuff (especially if you need to create some space for them to operate in).

    5. I love it when a plan comes together. I cover something similar in the anaconda section of my StarCo. write up, you need to have a plan at deployment of how you are going to play it on this table for example; which lanes is going to move through, where am I going to bunker up with them, what firelanes do I want to leverage, etc. This is doubly true for MI teams, you cannot play them effectively with out a plan, when the majority of your orders on something in the game are move+attack actions you never notice the secondary move value, so when you use MI teams you need to maximize this as much as you can so while they look slow on paper they seldom feel it on the table.

    6. Distraction carnifex. Sometimes the mission, table setup, opponent wont be a great place to run an assault team properly so the best use for it is to look scary, sit in the middle of the table and suck up all your opponent's orders while the rest of the list accomplishes the mission.
     
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  20. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    I had been meaning to put my thoughts on using aggressive fireteams to paper but with the announcement of N4 I figured I'd wait and do it then, probably along side an updated StarCo. write up.
     
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