Discussion in 'Nomads' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.
Mimetism that also works on dodges.
Sometimes it's not just a question of bothering to "liven up tables". Some metas just tend to play with fewer of these things, for whatever reason.
Visors need to stay relevant no matter the table setup, for their cost. Reducing their cost would be a great step in this direction, because even if the table wasn't suitable, at least you wouldn't be paying X more for a visor you're not able to make the most of.
This is especially true re: those evasion abilities. You don't have to play on any particular kind of table to make them useful.
(Also, the rules don't dictate - or even suggest - scenery placement with respect to difficult terrain / Low/Zero Vis zones, so there is not a book precedent to fall back upon.)
Because most people are lazy and don't want their B5, BS16 HMG to not be able to move through a spot or have that taken away, or to learn new rules and rescue left a bad taste in people's mouths as far as terrain is concerned. Not using terrain rules to some degree is a failure of the meta.
They are under optional rules, though they should just be under terrain. But because they are optional and not touched on what so ever during the starter kits no one bothers with them and as such have developed an unhealthy aversion too them.
Also people that don't play with line lasers (which is absolutely mind boggling) think that they make drawing LOF through impossible especially when you are using trees and other foliage.
I agree. There are a lot of people (even locally) that just want to play on the same building-block terrain all the time, not needing to move around anything or through anything. It's been a frustration of mine for a while.
Even when we do play on more jungle-ish boards, though, MSVs still feel more expensive than their evasion counterparts (especially as those stack with terrain!). But we've already spoken on this :)
(Yeah, I have no idea how people play without lasers...)
I pretty expressly said in my post about livening up tables, that visors still feel a bit expensive, even then...
I think part of why they're so expensive is because they can ignore swings of ~12. (ignore ODD/TO + ignore zero vis, or potenially -18 in the case of suprise attack and visor 3). While its not realistic to expect to regulaly have 12 or 18 point swings, even just 3 is a big deal (see mimitism). If the meta embraced using even just vis mods on a few areas of the table (fog/smoke, light shrubbary, dim lighting anything, and just outlined it with even just twine or paper) it would go a long way toward allowing the visor to get a lot more utility.
The swing side of leaving visors as they are, but reducing their cost, makes them OP on the admitedly rarer table that actually bothers to use vis zones.
TLDR of course visors are overpriced if no one ever uses half their abilities.
Playing paradiso campaign at the moment with a lot of jungle terrain, makes the game a lot better but requires a lot of LOF blocking terrain still as becomes an aro nest otherwise
Our resident USARF player has built a pretty good jungle table that uses vehicles, rocks and temporary barricades for this and it is great to play on when it is set up right. But balancing the LOF blocking and non LOF blocking terrain is very hard to get right and sometimes it swing too far one way or the other.
Yeah, but if terrain should fix the costs of MSV1,
then CB should include some Low Visibility Zones to some Missions,
like they do with the Saturation Zone in Power Pack.
Either static zones, or maybe some interactive zones:
As soon as you blow up that generator (AC2),
the lights in its ZoC (or maybe the whole map?) turn dark and it becomes a LowVisZone.
Or maybe something like "dusk is coming", and in Round 3 the whole map becomes a LowVisZone.
But if they don't want to scare off those that dislike terrain zones too much,
it can be implemented as ITS Extra.
Because just hoping for a table with VisZones is not enough.
It should be something you can plan for when building your list(s).
No because they did it in rescue and people hate it. CB can be a little heavy handed when comes to implementing such things (see the last campaign). They exist in the rules people just need to stop being scared and/or lazy and start using them. Also, saying because they are not forcing me to means I wont is a little on the stupid side.
Extrastuff like this is more than likely to get forgotten during play and as a result not be used. also that AC2 is so far in the backfield it isn't going to be relevant.
Hacking lights to turn them off could be fun, But probably belongs more in a narrative scenario.
Then we are back to it not being used due to it being an optional extra.
But what do you do when you don't build for it then get stuck with a table or two with them? Vis Zones are super easy to implement, Holosigns and similar things are easy to put anywhere on most tables and work great as pieces of low vis terrain. vents on the roof a building throwing up smoke can do the same thing.
Terrain rules are one of things where it requires a player or two to drag the rest of their meta kicking and screaming into to get them acclimatised to it so they can realise how wrong they were.
I don't think it's on the "stupid" side at all. You're using the word "me", but what's really implied here is "the group". You (or I) may want to use terrain rules with all our being, but if other people shy away from those tables, nothing really changes.
How much does it take for you to grab your meta kicking and screaming into terrain rules? I've printed out cards with specific terrain info, I try to set up tables with terrain - but whenever I look at a table I'm not involved in, it's back to regular square buildings and whatnot.
There's only so much you can do without it being official - especially because MSV costs are worked into the rules / points values, and terrain is not.
I remember running a ten man ITS and used a liberal smattering of jungle zones on the board. Looked cool, got loads of complements, then some git plonked an avatar in the middle of one with Dr worm behind him and dominated the entire game lol. It did nothing for the meta to convince them it was a good idea to use terrain rules lol!
That me was more referring to the mentality of players that because the game isn't forcing them to use it they are not going to.
You are pretty much on the right track, make a couple of tables that use them. It's one of those this where you need to start small and have a conversation with the members of your meta. Then as for the box tables if anyone is using clear acrylic holo signs (like the ones from Micro Arts or battle kiwi) have the transparent parts them be Low Vis zones as opposed to hard cover, this was something that happened in my meta as the tables were extremely claustrophobic which lead to an infestation of chain rifle and shotgun spam. this pretty much balanced it out almost immediately.
In the early iterations of my friends jungle table I had an Agema MK12 rampage through one side of the table. There was very quickly more LOS blocking cover put in place.
As for the Avatar it is always going to be a pain in the ass regardless of what happens. Rule 1 of engaging the Avatar, Don't. Rule 2, No really just Don't. Rule 3, Massacre his friends so he has no orders to spend.
Good advice, but it's not an easy solution by any means. I have literally been trying this since the end of N1.
(It's not a recent problem, nor is it just a case of "grow / change that meta". Visors need to be cheaper, period :))
Let's fix MI and see if the visor cost problem goes away from that. Most LI visors are fine.
Perhaps that's because my first faction is Haqqislam (HB into QK into Vanilla into HB into Ramah, yes in that order), but when I fell in love with Tunguska and saw Grenzer, I went "Oh, that's a cool sturdy MSV dude with cool loadouts, acceptable price and nice link options. Why aren't my Zhayedan THAT dude?".
To be honest I hope warbands and msv get changed significantly. I’ve always felt players use smoke and msv as a crutch. I’d like the game to go away from both of them and force players to embrace the other aspects of the game.
This is a great idea. Missions that always include terrain/visbility rules are a good way to get people to account for it at least a bit in their lists, at which point they have already invested something in it so they are more likely to receive it well overall.
The thing is to -not- do it as table-wide, which is the defalut CB way of doing difficult terrain, and is way way way too much.
ZoC of certain points on the table is a really cool idea.
Another possibility would be Dazers that get placed by each player alternately, say 2 of them.
Ironically it's rare to see Grenzers on the table too, mostly just because Hollowmen are so cheap though.
I agree the smoke trick is pretty BS but I'd rather not see warbands change. Maybe something like MSV2 lets you shoot through smoke but you still suffer -3 BS?
It’s not that I think the trick itself is bs, it’s not bad in a vacuum. my problem with it is everyone I play against is trying to run some version of it, they are running warbands of their own to try and counter it, factions are judged on value based on how well they can do it, and the entire game has been warped because of it.
Not everyone needs msv in their faction. Not all factions should be the same. Every faction should be good at some things and bad at others and those are factors a player should have to account for in army selection, list construction and play skill. I have watched the game go from being “do whatever you think is cool as long as you can pass the appropriate skill check” in version 1 to “ we need more msv and smoke and better cheaper msv” in N3. It’s really discouraging as a long time player and my main gripe with the game at the moment.
To talk about terrain rules.. I guess the tournament organisers could cultivate and encourage the use of different terrain rules by preparing rules for some of the cool ideas mentioned in this thread and assigning different sets of those rules to each game table.
Low-vis zones around some points on table 1, saturation and jungle terrain on table 2.. Destructible terrain everywhere :P
If these rules are applied during each tournament, even in small doses, people are going to get used to them
I mean, this way worked for our Age of Sigmar community, after our tournament organiser started assigning a different worlds' rules to the game tables.