Because Psychitc Storm explicitly cited flash pulses as one of the weapons he'd want in the coordinated order. Read the post I was responding to.
Coordinated orders are an interesting option for dealing with big AROs like the Prime. I think the issue you'll run into though is that few factions can actually pull it off with the efficiency you want unless you go for weird skews. For the classic coordinated order units like Daylami and Metros, I think you'll need at least three units to actually make it a decent play - and I guess that's reasonable for MRRF, but vHaqq and HB over the last few years have been moving away from Daylami, and especially a lot of Daylami in favor of Muttawi'ah. The Prime is also def not going to single-handedly encourage a move in the other direction as well, as Mutts just do so much for HB/vHaqq's DZ defense and general board control. I guess there's also weird skew stuff some factions could try like double Swissile in NCA or double Nocitifer ML in Shas/OCF? I really do think you need a Panzerfaust/Missile Launcher for this, I don't think MSRs can cut it damage wise. I don't think you need to get too fancy when it comes to dealing with a Prime on ARO. You either GML it or throw a TAG at it.
No, to clarify, the argument was that it was a skill that shouldn't be in Nomads. Full Auto dakka dakka dakka, that's a fire superiority skill. BS Attack (-3) isn't overpowered in a vacuum and neither was Full Auto in N3. It could be overpowered on a single unit if you stack way too much good stuff on said single unit, but that isn't the point. It's a skill that isn't sitting in Nomads design space of asymmetrical engagements and battlefield control. Both versions of the skill were clearly something you'd expect from the design space of a faction that was more oriented towards brute force and direct engagements, Pan-O, for example. It was not thematically appropriate for it to be in a faction with Nomads design and theme, much less for them to be the sole proprietors of said skill.
Given that in a coordinated attack you will choose to attack, if you choose to use Flash Pulse you will do it from a model in an out of cover position, of course two saves with 5% chance to render Prime useless for the turn if nothing else is available is not that bad, but 20% per save is better. @SpectralOwl PanO can just Brute force Prime to submission.
@SpectralOwl PanO can just Brute force Prime to submission.[/QUOTE] So can a Spetznaz. Probably the nastiest thing a Prime actually does to PanO is handle a Bolt ARO in a Core link in the most cost-efficient way in the game, which is still kind of annoying given it's better at it than actual PanO units, but mostly I was just joking earlier about those spoiled, no-good heretics with their "Eclipse Smoke Grenade" blasphemy.
Disagree. Nomads' themes are dirty tricks, and taking and hotrodding the seconds from other forces. Nomads' design space is specifically having eclectic, mixed, and tricksy tools, rather than having a blanket single "thing they do" (CC, firepower, etc.). They have leaned into that space even more in N4, as the tendancy to give almost every army a bit of everything has spread. That includes having a, singular, fire-superiority unit. That's exactly what the Kriza was there for, and it did it well. It fits with the fluff of the unit, and with Nomads' current design space. Bumping the unit down to Mim -3 was an downgrade made when the ruleset for N4 was still being figured out. There's little reason not to move the unit back tot he rule it had and used just fine in the previous edition. Agreed though that BS (-3) should not be exclusive to the Kriza. Makes sense for the Prime, especially as O-12 is meant to represent the best of the other Human factions, brought together and optimized. Also seems like it could belong on Sogarat Tempest Unit thematically, but that's the kind of thing that happens at an edition change.
It's a matter of density, Nomads having a singular fire superiority piece is ok, Nomads having a fire superiority piece that has the best fire superiority skill in the game bar nothing that nobody else has access to is not ok. It's like Yu Jing being the HI faction. Pan-O may have the Swisse, but Yu Jing has Zencha, Dao Fei, and Hac Tao so even though they share some skills it doesn't feel like Pan-O is encroaching on Yu Jing's factional identity of having numerous cutting edge HI. If Full Auto lvl2/BS Attack -3 was more common place then it wouldn't be egregious for Nomads to have one of their own options. If Pan-O had 3-4 high end attack pieces sporting BS Attack -3 across their various sectorials, then the Kriza could have it and it wouldn't be an issue with faction identity.
It's totally fine, mechanically, for the Kriza to get BS Attack (-3). Most of the time that's basically what it has anyway, literally only makes a difference vs msv. If you're getting shot in the arse mimetism is actually just better anyway! The Kriza costing the same with a different skill still wouldn't make it an exciting pick cos its 1) okay and 2) the Szally is right there and way better. Nobody really complains about the Szally even though its a much better shooty piece than anything else Nomads have, which makes me think that people actually just dislike things or like things based on vibes more than anything. Which is fine, I do that too, but I wish people were less like rargh this is objectively inappropriate and outside the design space, and more like "it just feels odd to me" as that is 1) what they actually mean and 2) all anyone outside the design team can actually say. A lot of people have pretty hard rules about faction identity which are fundamentally just made up in their own head.
Like I could have made up in my head that Yu Jing don't get pitchers and never will that's just not in their design space. Then I'd have been real mad when the Dokkaebei came out because yo this unit has a pitcher and its fantastic! As it happens I don't cos I didn't I just take it as it comes and then play some games and see what happens (and last game, killed it with a Zellenkrieger although I did lose that game, stupid Shaolin Monks). I don't give a shit. It's a cool unit, Yu Jing deserve cool units.
Were that what is happening, I might agree with you. Fortunately it is not. The Prime has the skill, higher BS, MSV1, and BS (+1DAM). Also (mentioned separately because it is tangential to shooting) Tac Aware, better link options, higher BTS, and a better MOV profile for a shoort (6-2). All for LESS points than the Kriza. Genuine WTF material there, mate. Giving BS (-3) back to the Kriza wouldn't even approach catching up with the Prime. So not only will the skill not be exclusive, but it's on a much, much better platform out there in O-12. Also what @Solar said about both alternate choices (Szally) and about design space changes in the game overall.
I was referring to the previous edition where the Kriza was the sole proprietor of Full Auto lvl2. It didn't make sense then at all for them to be that way, especially given the power curve back then was a lot weaker than it is now. Now you could put it back on the Kriza and there'd only really be one outstanding issue and it's less the Kriza/Nomads being a problem and more that CB have just utterly dropped the ball with Pan-O as a faction. In regards the Szalamandra not drawing the same ire from the community, it's as I said about density and adhering to faction design space. The Szally is a TAG with a HRMC and BS14 and no unique skills. Pan-O has a BS15 version of this, the Dragoes, so the Szally doesn't appear out of place. Additionally it has some gimmicks, higher BTS and the hacker pilot, that fit within the flavour of Nomads. It is a very different situation from the N3 Kriza that was running around with a unique skill that was outside their faction's main wheelhouse. As for change, change is fine when it's implemented well. Unfortunately CB has a really bad habit of implementing change poorly by making the decision to frequently leave things to rot. This is true for their alternative game modes they keep releasing half cocked and then never actually bother to make the effort to make them work, CB integrating all of the reinforcements into parent sectorials is a pretty clear indicator that they've basically given up on making the game mode work properly. It's also true for sectorials, they're historically completely happy to allow them to fall completely behind the curve balance wise and become noncompetitive. And this is also true for entire factions. Pan-O has an increasing problem with O-12 basically looking like "this is pretty much what Pan-O could be if it wasn't shit and didn't have a ban on smoke grenades." At this point we're basically a camo TAG away from just referring to O-12 as Pan-O-12.
Funny, I don't remember much of a serious reaction to the Kriza as out of bounds in N3. Maybe that's because there -was- a troop with the same rule who was much much worse, namely Tariq. [Man, I hated Tariq's rules set. Myomer stomped me hard with him at Interplanetario, definitely a lesson in pain there (learned quite a bit from watching Myomer play though). FA2 on that Super-jumping unit who was also a CC beast was BRUTAL.] Anyways, given the lower BS than Pan O and the power of full links getting +3 BS in N3, the Kriza having FA2 was not really out of band. Nor would it be out of band to give it back BS (-3) now, especially now that the Prime is out. These are accurate criticisms. And it's good to see them phrased in a mostly-neutral tone. This is how good ideas get integrated, like more frequent balance passes and specific fix suggestions.
Tarik didn't have the same rule as the Kriza. The Kriza had Full Auto lvl2, Tarik had Fatality lvl2. Fatality lvl2 had its own share of complaints, but it was more about the rule being utterly asinine to play against regardless of who was using it. Full Auto lvl2 was something that should've been propagated through Pan-O in N3, Fatality lvl2 was something that needed to be deleted from the game.
I remember a bit of grousing from PanO (the Shooty Faction), Yu Jing (the HI Faction) and Nomads (a surprising number of whom liked not having fire superiority as an option outside TAGs), but it was a fair bit more subdued than today. The game as a whole was in a better spot design-space wise at the time though; even if the rules were a mess I still remember the biggest faction gripe when I joined the forums was the Zhanshi's 1pt tax, which seems almost quaint now.
When the Kriza came out in N3 the game was not in a better spot design space. I think that's a bit of a rose tinted view!
Tunguska came at the very end of N3, and I do remember the threads at the end of N3, telling N3 was a better designed space than N4 is way too rose tinted view.
BS Attack -3 was canceld on the Kriza with N3->N4. It was the main part of a skill then and the core mechanic of +/- X is used very often in N4. Kirza in ints current form should not get it back, even not if it replaces Mime-3. But it should also not be on the Silverstar Prime. It should not be on a heavy high burst shooting platform. It will be of good use on a Ninja with Tacbow (even with a B+1 without FTO options) for example which shows how cunning and skillfull they are. But not within a cheap package of a S5 HI that also get MSV on top and shoots with loaded bullets and can do it one more time because of TA. Its not a gamebreaker but it is unnecessary frustating for the opponent to pump orders in some high BS, high burst unit until it falls down. Even hacking is not easy against the big boy. And something like a coop attack is also wasted afford and not a real counter. Shooting in the back? Get there first. Go into CC, dodge the glue first. Ignore it? Its a active turn monster. Just too many skills for the pricetag.
Valid arguments, but gotta disagree. It's not much different from inherent BS, but it doesn't benefit Normal rolls. That's an elegant thing that I think there's definitely space for. Fire-superiority platforms do have a place in the game IMO, whether single units or whole factions (Pan O is still well designed). You're right that shooting something with BS -3 in the face in their reactive might be frustrating... and that is very much the point. There's still plenty of counterplay, from modifying that frontal attack (Spotlight, your own Mim -3 or -6, surprise attack if defender is not core linked, etc.). Then there's the stuff we've always done vs. Pan O, ie "stab the shooty ones and shoot the stabby ones." On active of the FA/ BS-3 unit, it's similar to Mim but spreads out the design space further to eliminate "pure core linked Mim -3 visor wins all shooting matches game over" roadblocks. IMO that's a good thing. If it were on a TAG, or one too many units, it would break the curve. On a few S5 HI, it's not only fine it's a fun change to the overall balance of the game. And I say that as someone who is about to fight into TLB tomorrow, I'm really looking forward to having to work around that challenge.
Ah, right! Thanks for the correction. Don't miss that rule at all and I guess I'd mentally rolled them into one. Good thing they had such distinct names, amirite? :D As for Full Auto L2 on Pan O, that would have been a curve-breaker, way out of band if added to already-highest-possible-BS units. Id' also love to see BS (-3) not turn up much on units which can pure full-core link (or at least make those links REALLY expensive). Cat's already out of the bag for that in TLB but that's apparently kind of their thing. If it goes back onto Kriza, there's no pure-core option at least.
No. There is no counterplay. Counterplay would be BS+3 for the attacker. Which would make both even. Counterplay is a visor vs mimetism. Of curse you can work around the problem and spend lot of extra orders. CoOp attack is a possible solution to the problem, but many sectorials can´t do that without spending their CTs to reestablish fireteams. Spotlight requires at least an active pitcher or another way to get into hacking range (and its likely that SP has a tinbot-3 nearby). Same for CC (smoke will not help much). All this can be done with any other dangerous troop. All of this will not counter the BS-3. And remember Silverstar Megaprime also has MSV1 and BS 14 - for 53 pts. I do not see the fun in that rule.
