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Nobody expects the Imperial Service [ ISS Tactica ]

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Yasashii Fuyu, Feb 22, 2018.

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  1. BigBadFox

    BigBadFox Well-Known Member

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    Let us talk about the Hsien Haris.

    Im pretty new to INF, but played warmachine the past few years and Magic: The Gathering before, so im familiar with competitive play. So besides memorizing the point costs of the different armies i read the ITS.pdf and thought about what units besides the obvious powerhouses could be good and that left me with the idea of a Hsien Haris. The HMG option is pretty obviouss, because who doesnt love B5 MSV2 HMGs? But the loadout, that really attracts me, is the Tinbot MULTI Rifle option. My idea looks like this:

    [​IMG] Imperial Service
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]3
    [​IMG] HSIEN MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, AP CCW. (0.5 | 60)
    [​IMG] ZHÀNYING Hacker (Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 32)
    [​IMG] ZHÀNYING (Fireteam: Haris, Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 27)

    1.5 SWC | 119 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    So why the MULTI Rifle Tinbot Dude instead of the DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA HMG Version? I think you dont use the full potential of the Haris if you choose the HMG. I like very agressive playstyles (anyone remember Mountain-Lackey-Go?) and the MR Hsien has a nice range band with an underestimated weapon. Pushing forward and going for a more closeup firefight gives us the option to chose the Hacker Zhanying as the third guy in the party. The Zhanying Hacker as scenario dude harmonizes well with the shorter range band, because you are already in the middle of the table. And the Tinbot shines here, because it gives us some good protection on top (eg Transmission Matrix). With D-Charges you can solve even more objoctive. Pop smoke, DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA, push buttons.

    But since this forum has many players with tabletime over 9000, I ask you what you think about this setup.

    Too expensive? Are the Zhanying to vulnerable and the Haris is to much of a glass cannon?
    we need moar damage? Is the MULTI Rifle the weak spot? Do I trade to much offensive for some nice toys? How good can I trade with my opponent?
    Do I overestimated the scenario play? Is the hacker only nice to have or do you think he is really useful?

    My first List has a Su-Jian, Crane Link, Sophie and 8 Kuang Shi (and Stuff). Its just the ISS god stuff. Those units are stables and you cant go wrong with them. SO I want to find out, how the Haris works in the "button pressing" scenarios and how it is as a good list for an overall pairing. I know that you have to ajust here and there for some scenarios.
     
    Fire@Will likes this.
  2. Yasashii Fuyu

    Yasashii Fuyu Well-Known Member

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    When I first started playing ISS, I almost immediately started ignoring the Hsien + Zhanying Haris, as I deemed them too expensive to merely boost the Hsien's HMG Burst to 5. While I wrote this Tactica and read the comment of some others about it, I too realized the immense potential of this Fireteam when using the Multi Rifle TinBot Variant.

    After I realized how powerful this setup can be, I nowadays actually think that if I EVER were to use a Hsien + Zhanying Haris Fireteam, it would HAVE to be this setup, it's just too good not to use when using Zhanying!

    I do however think that it's uses are a bit limited and more on the "Anti Camo/ODD" or "Anti Marker" side, so if your meta is full of lists like that, this Firetema will be glorious, but if not, it might be a bit of a points waste compared to the other things you could get for the points...

    I like the idea of this Fireteam so much however that it actually made me order the Multirifle Hsien in my last order which should arrive today, so maybe soon I can give some more hands on Info on about how good it actually works on the table instead of just on paper and in my mind :-P

    Note: I know about the CSU Update, things are very busy on my side at the moment, I will update the CSU area in regards to the new profiles as soon as possible :-)
     
  3. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget the protected hacker, with a possible -9 MOD to Face-to-Face ARO attacks against other hackers (through repeaters) with Brain Burster, instead of the -3 MOD that Redrum imposes. Not quite comparable (with damage 16 DT instead of damage 14). Your opponent might be more likely to ARO with a reset, rather than an attack of their own.
     
  4. ZlaKhon

    ZlaKhon New scale enthusiast

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    It looks like a cool idea. How would the rest of your list look like?

    This would be my take:

    [​IMG] Imperial Service
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]4
    [​IMG] HSIEN MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, AP CCW. (0.5 | 60)
    [​IMG] ZHÀNYING Hacker (Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 32)
    [​IMG] ZHÀNYING (Fireteam: Haris, Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 27)
    [​IMG] HSIEN Lieutenant HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 61)
    [​IMG] CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] XI ZHUANG Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, MadTraps / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]3
    [​IMG] CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] DAKINI Tacbot MULTI Sniper Rifle / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 21)
    [​IMG] DAKINI Tacbot Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    The second Hsien HMG gives it some long range power, uses the LT order well and we have the Dakini MSR for ARO. But we are down to three specialists, which makes this list an interesting hard counter to Camo, but definitely not a good all comers list. Maybe a CG link would be the way to go here.
     
  5. BigBadFox

    BigBadFox Well-Known Member

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    To be honest: I have no idea how the rest of the list should look like, because you have so many options, but not much points left.

    My first Group:
    [​IMG] Imperial Service
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]4
    [​IMG] HSIEN MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, AP CCW. (0.5 | 60)
    [​IMG] ZHÀNYING Hacker (Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 32)
    [​IMG] ZHÀNYING (Fireteam: Haris, Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 27)
    [​IMG] CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31)
    [​IMG] CELESTIAL GUARD Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)

    2 SWC | 196 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    And because we already have the CG Lt and we want the CG Controller with his 4 Bois, a CG Link with Multi Sniper is an obvious choice. Thats leaves us with only few points spare, so either a Ninja KHD (iirc 1 KS have to go for her) or a Rui Shi. With either option and the CG Sniper Link you have pretty much covered many of the things a ITS list should have.
     
  6. krossaks

    krossaks Well-Known Member

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    Second group is too much orders just for and aro piece. Maybe insted of dakini msv you could go for a kanern forward observer or a KHD ninja or a CoC the protect the Hsien.

    Like this more or less:
    [​IMG] Task force ──────────────────────────────────────────────────GRUPO 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]4[​IMG] HSIEN Fusil MULTI, Nanopulser + 1 TinBot B (Deflector N2) / Pistola, Arma CC AP. (0.5 | 60)[​IMG] ZHÀNYING Hacker (Disp. de Hacker) Fusil Combi Breaker, Cargas-D / Pistola, Pulso Eléctrico. (0.5 | 32)[​IMG] ZHÀNYING (Fireteam: Haris, Sensor) Fusil Combi Breaker, Granadas Nimbus / Pistola, Pulso Eléctrico. (0.5 | 27)[​IMG] HSIEN Teniente Ametralladora, Nanopulser / Pistola, Arma CC AP. (2 | 61)[​IMG] GUARDIA CELESTIAL (Disp. Control de Kuang Shi) Fusil Combi + Lanzagranadas Lig. Humo / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0.5 | 13)[​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 5)[​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 5)[​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 5)[​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 5)[​IMG] XI ZHUANG Fusil Combi + Lanzallamas Lig. MadTraps / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 20)GRUPO 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]2[​IMG] AGENTE IMPERIAL FAISÁN (Cadena de Mando) Red Fury / Pistola, Arma CC DA. (1 | 35)[​IMG] GUARDIA CELESTIAL (Disp. Control de Kuang Shi) Fusil Combi + Lanzagranadas Lig. Humo / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0.5 | 13)[​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 5)[​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 5)[​IMG] Yaókòng CHAĪYÌ Pulso Flash, Sniffer / Pulso Eléctrico. (0 | 8) 5.5 CAP | 299 PuntosAbrir en Infinity Army

    The list is a bit week in objective making ( for light specialist misions like supplies is ok) and too kuang shi dependent but it can work well against heavy camo enemies or in inside tabletops
     
  7. Borlois

    Borlois Yu Jing Imperial Service Agent

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    I think Hsien with multy rifle should be with Zhanging and madtraps, we must go closer the enemy and madtraps protect the Haris very well. Perhaps another haker troop can be use. And a Hsien with HMG but like a lonewolf is not bad.
     
  8. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    It's really situational and only something for some missions, but I absolutely love the Tinbot Hsien and Zhanying for Transmission matrix. The key thing for that mission is the repeater coverage, so if you go big with hacking you can start dropping guided shots on scoring units. To do that, you really need to bring multiple hackers and win the infowar - my recipe is EVO for kaleidoscope and active turn hacking dice re-rolls, KHD ninja and the zhanying, as well as a Sophotect to get guys back on their feet if they drop.

    The amazing thing that's been overlooked with the Zhanying hacker is that he always has SSL2 even in a 3 man haris. That means enemy camo KHD won't get bonuses to surprise shot him and you can always defer his ARO declaration until they've split burst - a huge bonus when an enemy is probably already at -9 to hack him with kaleidoscope up and the -6 tinbot mod.

    Also, I'm swapping the long range of the hsien hmg for a garuda spitfire - he's a nice expensive model that can drop in and take one of the enemy scoring zones away from them. Buffed with assisted fire through one of the friendly repeaters he can make a real mess of anything that has advanced to midfield.

    [​IMG]Transmission Matrix w/ Hsien Haris
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]4
    [​IMG] HSIEN Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 60)
    [​IMG] ZHÀNYING Hacker (Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 32)
    [​IMG] ZHÀNYING (Fireteam: Haris, Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 27)
    [​IMG] CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] GARUDA Tacbot Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 28)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31)
    [​IMG] YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] PANGGULING Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25)
    [​IMG] SON-BAE Yaókòng Smart Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 18)
    [​IMG] NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    [​IMG] WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  9. entropolous

    entropolous Active Member

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    Is there any situation where you could see running a Zhanying haris without a Hsien?
     
  10. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I don't like the EVO hacker, it only works if you go second and use a command token to get Kaleidoscope up and it only lasts for round 1. Trying to rebuff (or going first) gets him ARO'd by every hacker on the table and killed, which then cancels Kaleidoscope anyway.

    It's not even particularly reliable if your opponent is bringing cheap throwaway killer hackers like Zeros. They can trade for the EVO bot to remove Kaleidoscope then take a crack at the Zhanying, or at least provide enough of a threat that activating the link to try and do anything will likely punish you.

    I've seen alot of people try out the EVO on Transmission Matrix and ultimately conclude it's not actually worth its points or the command token in reality.
     
    #50 Triumph, May 20, 2018
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
  11. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

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    I have completely different experience with EVO. It's very much worth it, regardless if going first or second.
     
  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I've never seen them manage to keep Kaleidoscope up, they always seem to get picked off or sit around with their robotic thumbs up their ass because trying to use Kaleidoscope means eating 3-4 unopposed hacking AROs.

    Alternatively your opponent did the no hack transmission type list, and then they're just a relatively over expensive order at 25pts.
     
    #52 Triumph, May 21, 2018
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
  13. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

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    I won't speak about specific missions, but in general use my go-to EVO Gadget isn't Kaleidoscope, it's Overclock. Burst 2 Flash Pulse plus whatever weapons combat REMs carry really put a wrench in enemy opening plans. Granted, it's a bit more useful in PanO as we have better AVA on Repeaterbots and Peacemaker's Auxbot shares the benefits as well, but I'd use it in YJ too. Sat-Lock and AD bonuses are also very useful.

    In general I prefer taking EVO over standard HD as my basic support hacker.
     
  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I'm talking about the EVO hacker in Transmission Matrix specifically, as that was the topic of discussion. Obviously outside of that mission EVO hackers have their uses and are worth their points as they can actually put up relevant buffs without getting ARO'd from the enemy DZ on turn 1.

    However the local group has discovered while Kaleidoscope on paper seems like a no brainer choice for Transmission Matrix, when you actually try to use it there are clunky interactions that make it not worthwhile.
     
  15. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

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    Ah, missed that. Thanks.
     
  16. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    Maybe what you're missing for the EVO in transmission matrix is the passive bonus to bringing in a Garuda. Admittedly you can walk one on, but +3 gives you a 75% chance of spiking a landing in a spot where you can immediately buff it with assisted fire AND score an antenna - that's a pretty useful bonus even against no-hacking opponents.

    Kaleidoscope gives you a solid buff in your defensive hacking game first turn. If an enemy hacker hits the EVO, you can ARO with your KHD and Zhanying and just use breakwater on the EVO which should keep you alive. If your enemy has second turn, you can use the EVO to try and bait killer hackers into the open - with two levels of unconscious a single redrum ARO can't kill the EVO, so you can always doctor it back up if it goes down.

    Being able to re-roll hacking dice with a command token is a *great* passive ability in an infowar. If you go against a KHD aro and they whiff or hit buy roll low, you simply get a do-over to kill them against a known bad roll!
     
  17. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    This is a genuinely amazing guide.
    I found this highly informative and really look forward to any further discussions or guides you might create!
    Keep up the good work and good luck.
     
    Yasashii Fuyu likes this.
  18. descrii

    descrii Well-Known Member

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    Why does the EVO get 3-4 AROs when it runs a supportware program?
     
  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Because of the mission quirks surrounding transmission matrix.
     
  20. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    I just got into Infinity. I have only played a demo game and have only read through N3 once. So much to wrap my head around :) . I got the Red Veil and Beyond set thinking I would like Yu Jing. After doing some more reading and learning about fire teams I am leaning towards the ISS.

    This guide is an incredible asset. Thank you for your time and effort. I look forward to more ISS tips, tactic, and disscussion.

    Can someone plase help me with the how a 10 order eliete list works vs a spam list (is that the other play style?)
     
    Space Ranger likes this.