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Nimbus + Smoke

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by locksmith, Mar 29, 2018.

  1. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    They are. See pretty much all the earlier posts, including the quotes in some of your own.
     
  2. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
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    Yeah well... quite interesting that every time a rule appears to me like a Mondrian it turns out to be a Pollock...
     
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  3. Spleen

    Spleen Well-Known Member

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    So the entire declaration sequence proposed in the original post was wrong then and green should have reacted sooner? And if an enemy creates a zero visibility zone I can effectively neutralize it by AROing a nimbus grenade onto it?

    The rules are abundantly clear that they are referring not just to mods, but to physical zones themselves:

    If an area would be affected by two or more Visibility Zones of whatever type, apply only the most obscuring.
     
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  4. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Holy shit. Are you telling us this whole time weve been looking for a reason to use nimbus nades that we could have been chucking them just shy of smoke zones and start shooting things inside the smoke at -3, without needing msv2+.

    Ie nimbus nades effectively become anti smoke grenades.


    Thats epic!
     
  5. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Ok so hyperbole aside.

    My understanding is this.
    Until the msv2 troop inside smoke declares bs attack there is no lof so no mods can possibly kick in.

    When the msv2 troop declares bs attack at a target the situation forksin the first instance the target shoots back, -6 becomes the largets mod and therefore the nimbus -3 is ignored.

    If however the target dodges then the -3 nimbus zone mod kicks in as larger than the no kod applied to dodge by zero vis zones and is applied.

    This is how it works yes?
     
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  6. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    You two are being idiots. @ijws comment refers Step 7 when determining which MODs apply to a Dodge not to whether or not you get an ARO at all due to LOF at Steps 4 or 6.

    Basically if a Hsien was in a Nimbus Zone and a Zero V Zone simultaneously and they BS Attack you you can BS Attack back at -6 or Dodge at -3.
     
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  7. Spleen

    Spleen Well-Known Member

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    Hyperbolic, maybe. Idiots, I don't think so

    I stand by my assessment that the rules clearly tell us to apply the greatest physical zone on the table, not just the greatest mod at the time it becomes relevant
     
  8. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Thus my quoting of the spanish rules. Since the game is spanish in its origin. Made in Spain, in Spanish language, then translated to english. I fail to see where in that chain of occurrence the "english is superior" comes from. And the spanish rules are crystal clear: you apply the most negative MOD instead of adding them.

    Incidentally, my summoning and quoting was more in the line "hey dude, this thing seems to be mistranslated".
     
  9. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    I'd say it passes well beyond the point of being hyperbolic. :disappointed:

    And applying the most obscuring zone is inherently something that changes depending on the relevancy - Zero Visibility isn't obscuring at all when it comes to the target Dodging, but it definitely is when it comes to everyone else drawing LoF.
     
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  10. locksmith

    locksmith comlog active

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    I don't think this is correct. You're either don't have LOF or you have MODs based on your LOF. Having both seems like a cake-and-eat-it-too situation.
     
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Zero Visibility allows you to shoot back "even without LoF". In other words, it doesn't grant you Line of Fire, so any skills that gives you MODs or conditions from lacking LOF will still give those MODs or conditions.
     
  12. locksmith

    locksmith comlog active

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    @Mahtamori you're misrepresenting the rules, and it appears to be intentional, since you chose not to put quotes around "shoot back"-- the actual text says "respond" not 'shoot back'. My apologies if calling you out seems harsh, but this is an example of why this forum is frustrating to new players. You are singling out one bullet and excluding the context given by another bullet (and a giant red box) in order to make your argument. "Respond" refers to both dodge and attacks, while the next bullet makes it clear which is which. The only way the second bullet (and indeed the giant red box) makes sense is if shooting back gives you modified LOF to shoot back. (This is why the example in my original post has both AROs as dodge)



      • Any trooper who is the target of a BS Attack into or out of a Zero Visibility Zone, or whose LoF traverses a Zero Visibility Zone, may respond to the attacker even without LoF, provided the trooper is facing the attacker.
      • However, without a clear LoF to his target, the trooper's ARO (or second Short Skill of his Order in Active Turn) options are reduced to BS Attack with a -6 MOD or Dodge without the MOD.
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Zero_Visibility_Zone
     
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  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I could fire that one right back at you. You're confusing the message in order to insert your own interpretation into it. The rules clearly state that you may respond without LOF which means just that. You are responding without LOF, so the template rules penalty on Dodge still apply.

    Luckily there's an example in the rules we can look at to find out, I'll underline the relevant passage: http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Intuitive_Attack

    Example of Intuitive Attack from Zero Visibility Zone against several targets
    In his Active Turn, Fendetestas the Irmandinho, standing inside a Smoke Template—a Zero Visibility Zone—and carrying his trusty Chain Rifle, resolves to make an Intuitive Attack against a couple of Fusiliers who are outside the Zero Visibility Zone.
    The first Fusilier declares a BS Attack ARO, while the second chooses instead to Dodge.
    Consequently, the Irmandinho makes one single WIP Roll, which is then compared in Face to Face against the first Fusilier's BS-6 Roll (the MOD imposed by the Zero Visibility Zone for responding to a BS Attack from out of LoF) and against the second Fusilier's PH-3 Roll (the MOD for trying to Dodge a Template Weapon without LoF).
    If Fendetestas were to win the Face to Face Roll against both, then they would each make an ARM Roll.
    If the first Fusilier, who declared a BS Attack, were to win the Face to Face Roll, then Fendetestas would be the one to make an ARM Roll. However, the success of the first Fusilier would not prevent the second from taking Damage; he would have to win the Face to Face Roll himself.
    If the second Fusilier were to win his Face to Face Roll against the Irmandinho, then he would take no Damage and would be able to move up to 2 inches as per his Dodge ARO.
     
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  14. locksmith

    locksmith comlog active

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    None of that addresses why you think that the mods stack. -3 for dodging without LOF or -3 for Nimbus, I don't see anything that justifies applying both.
     
  15. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    The point is that the visibility zone mods don't stack with each other. Visibility zone mods still stack with other types of mods.
     
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  16. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Thank you sir. While your logic i could understand. It did seem a rather twisty way to argue it. An example though? That is clear cut.
     
  17. locksmith

    locksmith comlog active

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    I don't see how the example applies. Dodging when attacked through smoke removes the requirement for LOF, which means you do not apply visibility zone mods.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Low_Visibility_Zone

    Q: How do the MODs for Low/Poor Visibility Zones apply to Dodge Rolls? And to Engage?
    A: The MODs apply whenever a Skill, Special Skill or piece of Equipment requires LoF and is declared from, into or through a Low or Poor Visibility Zone. Note that if the trooper is within the Visibility Zone this also applies to Dodge Rolls against template weapons from outside LoF. So:

    Any Dodge declared inside a Low/Poor Visibility Zone suffers the negative MOD, even in Close Combat or if the Dodge didn’t involve LoF.

    Any Dodge which LoF to the enemy trooper passes into/out/through a Low/Poor Visibility Zone suffers the penalty.
     
  18. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    I bolded the part that you seem to be missing in your quote of the FAQ.
     
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  19. geniusloci

    geniusloci Member

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    Just want to make sure I understand a similar situation right.

    A Hsien is sitting in a middle of both Smoke and Nimbus zone. He chooses to attack with his HMG one Domaru nearby, part of a three man fireteam, and lowly Keisotsu. The Domaru decides to shoot back with his Spitfire. The Keisotsu decides to Dodge.

    1. The Hsien has MSV2,so he is not affected by the smoke poor vis zone -6 MOD, so I apply the -3 MOD from the Nimbus low vis zone that affects him, plus the reduced Burst MOD from the saturation zone. So he shoots at -3 at the Domaru and the Keisotsu, splitting his lowered Burst 2/1. (or I should apply the -6 from the poor vis zone that he ignores?)

    2. The Domaru shoots back at -6 and with Burst 1, for he’s affected by the poor vis zone of the Smoke and the saturation zone of the nimbus.

    3. The Keisotsu dodges at -6 because he is attacked from poor vis zone.

    A bit of a cornercase, yet I’d like an advise.
     
  20. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Mostly correct, but a couple corrections if I am understanding your post accurately:

    When you split burst through a Saturation Zone, the reduction is applied AFTER the split, so you would split your dice as 3/1 or 2/2. Then the Saturation Zone would take you down to 2/1 or 1/1, so it is important how you declare this.

    Smoke is not a Poor Viz Zone, it is a Zero Viz Zone. As such, dodging has a special exception to not apply the penalties from a Zero Viz Zone. However, no such exception applies for other types of Visibility Zones, meaning the Keisotsu would have dodged at a -3 (the highest applicable penalty).
     
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