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New wave of Varuna rumors (OMG)

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by barakiel, Sep 29, 2018.

  1. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

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    The bulleteer is 12 vs the EBs 10s actually.
    Because the Kamau has mimetism
    Assuming MKMN2 and good ranges for both

    That is of course adding an order for the supportware and assuming the bulleteer has made it to within 24 of the Kamau without at least 1 F2F, not sure i really buy into the second but yes the first is good gameplay.


    That being said, im not trying to say one is better than the other, im saying they are different tools for different jobs, jobs defined not so much by their combat capabilities which are similar but by their mobility capabilities which vary greatly and their synergies within the rest of hte list (hacker requirements and support ect)
    To me this makes them 2 different tools that are very good at their utterly different jobs. where you may as well be comparing apples and oranges
     
    barakiel likes this.
  2. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Infinity is a situationally dependent game – meaning that the game changes greatly depending on who your opponent is, what table you're playing on and what mission you're doing ect ect.

    That being said:

    You're not using the Echo Bravo correctly if this is your end all be all to what is a better unit. What about hiding? who is better at hiding?

    my regular opponents would never let me move 30 inches unopposed.
    my regular opponents will always try their best to take advantage of the large size of the S4 base by denying cover and laying mines.
    my regular opponents will always see a fusilier hacker or Kamau hacker as easy pickings and immediately launch a pitcher/approach a repeater and blow that hacker up.

    this is a moot point because the EB doesn't have to be defended from hacking

    why does the EB need to spend 5 orders in your magic scenario while the buletteer has to only spend 1? you're ignoring the fact that the remote has to trudge through the entire board.....
    Why does the Echo bravo have to deal with flamers and flash pulses in your magic scenario while the bulleteer doesn't?

    now you're comparing 25/1 to 41/1.5 even more if you add in the "hacking defense" you claim is so necessary.

    You're trying to argue that a bone saw makes a good scalpel. If you're unable to see use in a unit that is untouchable until they hit the field when you say so, thats on you. I suggest you try a different game plan or a wildly different list in the next game you play, just to see what happens.
     
    A Mão Esquerda and daboarder like this.
  3. Make PanO Great Again :P

    Make PanO Great Again :P Varuna, with the deadliest reptiles in the sphere

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    @Toalpaz , the bulleter is great, but read my second game, there is no way he can do what the EB did there.
    If you go from the front take the rem with mm2.
    If you want to jump over all the defenses and crush the backline take the AD guy.

    Diferent tools for diferent situations.
    You can cut your food with the fork and lift it with your knfe, that doesnt mean they are the same.
     
    Deltervees likes this.
  4. Toalpaz

    Toalpaz Active Member

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    You do you babes.
     
  5. AngryPanda

    AngryPanda Well-Known Member

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    You know, they just started to give Pan O nice things. Let's not ruin it with "What, an interesting and unusual unit? Meh, Bulleteers are better."
     
  6. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    Why the heck would you compare EB to a Bulleteer of all things? "Fast attack piece"? Really?
    Bulleteer is more comparable to Montesa Biker, a fast and direct fat attacker you send in in first turn. EB drops in on second or third, to shoot people in the back and/or take objectives.
    The thing it should be compared to is Cube Jager. Now that's interesting, as Jager has worse BS and is Irregular, but has better WIP and anti-armor weapons (if short ranged ones). However EB can drop in as a Hacker and attempt to hack heavy targets instead of attacking them directly and has better template weapons to deal with links (LRL mostly).
    I would definitely play EB like I play Tomcats in Nomads. But I won't, because I get that out of my Nomads already ;P
     
  7. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Nothing to really say on the EB to Bulleteer comparison that hasn't been said already but I'll also just chime in to add that in order to make the Bulleteer work at peak performance you want a hacker to buff it, and that's an additional order and points investment, also adding a disruptable inter-troop weakness in your force (kill the hacker and the Bulleteer gets much less effective, plus the Bulleteer gives you access to said hacker due to being a repeater)
     
  8. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    there it is.
    you know, instead of pugging your ears and wailing you could try listening to the advice 9 people are giving you
     
  9. Make PanO Great Again :P

    Make PanO Great Again :P Varuna, with the deadliest reptiles in the sphere

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    @MikeTheScrivener , i haven't been called babe in a long time outside of my girlfriend, dont ruin the complement, lets imagine a romantic dinner with the dude
     
    Ayadan and MikeTheScrivener like this.
  10. gregmurdock

    gregmurdock Extremely Beloved Member

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    why are you all even engaging in this terrible argument
     
  11. Toalpaz

    Toalpaz Active Member

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    I'm not wailing or plugging my ears. We clearly have different ideas about what's good or not and neither of us are convinced. I've said all my points and I'm done.
     
  12. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    I thought Bulleteer was like that too if used well. Until last tournament. The table was full of little obstacles that wouldn't impede in the movement of a S1, S2, S5 and above much. But for S3 and S4, there was something that could be compared to antitank obstacles. My remotes could only go through the middle line of the table by jumping or take the tiny way at the far left of the table... I should have taken my Squalo that time.
     
  13. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    It's funny that we don't haver such cries from TJC with Hollow Man literally being gimped by Difficult Terrain ^^
     
  14. Make PanO Great Again :P

    Make PanO Great Again :P Varuna, with the deadliest reptiles in the sphere

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    No one here has tell you that the Bulleteer is bad (everyone loves it) or that the Echo Bravo is better, for real, no one.
    We are just telling you that one is a great apple and the other one is a very good banana.
    If you like apples more than bananas is fine, but they are still a different fruit.
     
  15. xammy

    xammy Keeper of Random Facts and Strong Opinions

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    That is a good point. It's not often that it happens... but it really stinks when your remotes base size or silhouette height prevent movement. If I see a table that COMPLETELY blocks movement of some model types from one end to the other, then I call over a TO.
     
  16. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

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    Things like Terrain Rules are a big part of how the game was designed. If Hollow Men seem really, really good, it's because they have a terrain weakness built in, and few metas or table setups really punish them for it.

    Aquatic Terrain isn't a huge advantage, but I do have an event coming up in 2019 that has multiple water tables. That should be interesting.
     
    Gera, Erbent, Ayadan and 1 other person like this.
  17. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Very true. Many of us (myself and my local meta included) don't put in the effort needed to use tables with terrain rules, which makes units with terrain weaknesses seem undercosted or too far ahead on the power curve, and units that pay for terrains rules overcosted or weak.
     
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  18. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Sad fact is that terrain rules are most ignored rules in game (even CT "auto pass Guts" is used more often).

    I still meditate about way to make terrain rules "fitting", easy to implement (on table) and somewhat random.

    Hopefully if I have some free time I might finally put it into some document.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  19. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    I was just chatting with one of our local players about that... as a short term solution, we were thinking of just some fabric shapes laid on the table, saying "this one is Jungle Terrain" or "this one is Aquatic Terrain", etc.
     
    eciu likes this.
  20. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    @barakiel this reminds me that my Paradiso table (the one with the jungle and a shore I showed in the other thread on Varuna) is not really popular for the most part of the guys who play on it because it rewards CH skills and ODD if you didn't bring MSVs and MSVs straight (jungle terrain and the plants don't block LoF so you have to virtually remove them in your mind for determining cover). And above of them there are an Ariadna and a Tohaa players.

    I think a terrain rule over all the table is not something to look for. But rewarding the ones who think about it by giving them a shorter/less risky approach than the one for unskilled troopers is a good way to follow. And mixing terrains on the same table can make it interesting as Multiterrain troopers have to choose between them the one the want to not been slowed by.