Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by barakiel, Sep 29, 2018.
The Bulleteer ODD spitfire is better than the Echo Bravo AD Red Fury.
two different units used for two different purposes
If the Bulleteer could start 36" up the board we might even begin to have a comparison...
No, they're b4 weapons on fast bodies. They're meant to push. It takes Bulleteer like 2 orders to move 20 inches into position, or Echo Bravo 1 order to land, and another to get to cover/shoot, so like 1.5. Bulleteer has a 5 point swing in BS in it's favour, and if you spend an order its a 8 point swing compared to Echo Bravo. The echo bravo is also slow once it lands and kills the 1-3 people it can see.
you're boiling down the two units to the most basic of standards while ignoring key differences and nuances. Opponents can watch where you deploy a bulleteer, can anticipate it's approach and adapt accordingly. An Echo-Bravo, partially thanks to it's low points investment, is often tough to anticipate and even harder to pin down.
Things like chain rifles and mines are also a very very easy answer to a bulleteer while they are much less effective against the echo bravo. Infiltrators and other common zone defense pieces scare bulleteers and need to be cleared before they can advance, the Echo bravo can opt to deploy behind these things or on another section of the board and bypass them entirely, making it much easier to dive the opponents back line.
While ODD is incredibly powerful, it usually doesn't matter for the role of a back field killer, if you are leveraging the range of the red fury/spitfire, opponents squishy pieces are often choosing to dodge rather than shoot back, as that is going to be the better number regardless of ODD or not.
Finally, the bulleteer is hackable, echo bravo is not. The bulleteer can possibly put your hackers at risk in reactive turn, the echo bravo cannot.
I don't know the specific metas involved, so ican only speak for myself about EB vs Bulleteer.
For me though, my opponents are skilled enough that they're not going to let a Bulleteer make a run. Whether it's direct template weapons, hackers, mines, perimeter weapons, more and more I'm finding that opponents are defending vs Bulleteers. Even if the Bulleteer is your reserve drop and you're going first, my opponents can usually read that there's a Bulleteer coming because they see the Machinist+palbot that stand out very obviously.
The EB's great because the opponent suspects it's there, but doesn't know for sure. It can use small spaces for cover, go prone, cautious move, bypass Hackers, Dodge if necessary, and doesn't leave a Repeater sitting around for the enemy to try and use.
If you're only calculating the F2F roll, the Bulleteer's obviously superior. But the Echo Bravo is harder to counter; and much harder for your opponent to anticipate, contain and control. It's designed to operate without any support, while REMs in general need a ton of support to operate at their full potential.
Eh it's airborne infiltration, and it's not exactly hard to guard your flanks.
Your points about Bulleteer being hackable and odd being bad on back field troops are contradicting. If Bulleteer is a backfield troop how is it getting within 8 inches to be hacked/hacked through.
However even if you break those points down individually you'll see that they aren't strong. ODD is good on 'backfield' units like Bulleteer because he moves 6/4 and isn't backfield. So that's just wrong. One movement is enough to get just about any ARO pieces into firing range, making ODD useful, because you're supposed to use it to shoot people. Which is what the EB is supposed to do.
Bulleteer being hackable and a repeater adds utility to the unit, and isn't a draw back. It has two stages of unconsciousness, additional movement, courage, can be given firing assistance, hackers can defend it by AROing hackers and assault hackers that enter 8' of it, and can be used as a hacking attack piece. This is at the cost of being hackable and making hackers vulnerable at certain times. Looking at this, at worse being a REM is even pro and con wise. I think it's reasonable to say that actually, Bulleteer being a REM is very good and adds a lot of utility to your army.
Some 1 wound airborne infiltrator is extremely limited as to what it can actually take on, once you kill a few flankers you'll be out of position. Or even worse, you won't have a place to deploy because typically a couple of ARO pieces would push you fairly far back, making AD:2 situational at best.
Chainrifles and Mines? The -3 to dodge them is real, however I don't think your opponent would need a chainrifle or mine to handle an Echo Bravo in suppressive fire, compared to a Bulleteer. The reason why people use those things against Bulleteer is because it's absolutely disgustingly dominate in a firefight, people will just shoot your EB with a good attack piece and he'll die and that's that.
If you're talking about the active turn, which I doubt you are, but still. You just don't move into templates and it is fine.
Nope, they're not. If you plan on moving your Bulleteer to the opponents back line you have to cross through that section of the board where most hackers/repeaters like to hang out – the middle.
what? I think you're mis-reading or not understanding my argument. The echo bravo wants to dive the opponents backline – to make good use of his low damage shock weapon by shooting squishy, less combat capable units like doctors and engineers, maybe link team members that wield a lower impact gun. This is something that I don't think the bulleteer is particularly good at, or something that it excels or leverages it's bonuses at.
It's unfortunate that Varuna has no marker state regular hacking device, or this might actually be a decent combo. In reactive turns a hacking device left on a line trooper connected with a mid-field repeater is just asking to be punished, which is unfortunately all we have. This proposes a number of problems for Varuna, mainly being a really really easy way to take away our link bonuses without having to engage them on odds that are favorable to us.
All of these things are really great bonuses you've listed, but unfortunately nothing comparable or even relevant to what the Echo-Bravo brings to the table and what role he provides. which is the crux of this argument.
the great thing about the Echo-Bravo is that he doesn't have to hit the table until you want him to – you can actually remove those pesky ARO units and then bring him on.
Here's the thing – I wouldn't leave my Echo Bravo sitting out in suppressive fire like I would a buleteer. That's throwing him away and not using him correctly. You keep trying to apply the same tactics to two different units and exclaiming one is better than the other. Once again, two different strategies for two different units. I'm not arguing the Echo Bravo is better than the bulleteer, I'm saying he has a different game plan.
You have marker state camo hackers in the Zulu Cobra, and Croc Men assault hackers. Your regular hacker would be chilling and buffing and those hackers come out to ARO if your opponent tries to fry the hacker or ARO against someone trying to mess with Bulleteer.
I misread the ODD being useless on backfield killer part, sorry!
I still think that it isn't useless because it lets you push up into into them relatively safely. Regardless, even if you fight and kill ARO pieces you're still reducing order pool and Bulleteer is one of the best at it. I also think you're seriously overestimating the usefulness of AD2 for getting into the backfield.
I appreciate that you're trying to argue that there's a niche that EB fills, however I am arguing that Bulleteer is better and that's what you originally disagreed with.
I mean, it's better in the way that a smartphone is better than a microwave oven.
If I had to choose which one to keep, I'd keep my smartphone. But if I need to heat up dinner I'm going to regret not having a microwave (unless I had a Note 7).
once again, we have no marker state regular hacking device, they're both very vulnerable, even if we have a Zulu lying in wait. (which for the record I would be terrified to ARO with unless I absolutely had to – as they are very weak defensively.)
Bingo. you're correct. The bulleteer is great at killing ARO pieces, the Echo bravo is not. a different use for a different unit.
Better in what way? Better at gunfighting? sure. Better at entering the enemy deployment zone/capturing HVT/hiding? not really. by what metric can you weigh one more than the other? just in general? They accomplish two different tasks and execute two different strategies
Worth pointing out that Spitfire Bulleteer vs Red Fury Echo Bravo is pretty surface level. I have been using the Paramedic with Shotgun and Parrot, or light rocket/bsg. These are very different than the Bulleteer.
The crux of the issue is whether EB's have better mobility than Bulleteers.
Because Bulleteers have better killing power, interesting utility, defensiveness (suppressive fire), and are can be defended from hacking. I'm not sure you you think you need a marker state regular hacker to pull off he attack buff, it really isn't that bad. I'm saying you defend that hacker with more ARO hackers.
So EB's get held back longer and only come on during the game using their order. That's a good ability. However, they use their own order to come on, and if you have to hold them back to turn 2 it's as if you spent 2 orders moving to that position in hidden deployment. This is to get a B4 8-24" gun into position to fire, and additionally you should have to take cover which is another order probably. so 2-3 orders to get into position using AD 2, but you can go anywhere on the sides. However integral to getting into the back field is walking past flame throwers and shotguns and flash pulses that should be watching the sides/corners. I don't think you're actually going to be getting into the back arcs/odd firing lanes without a lot more effort than 1-2 orders, and even then a spitfire isn't suited for that in the way a BSG would be, if you pass within shotgun lanes or can line up multiple kills with one template.
2-3 orders on a Bulleteer gets you about 20-30" of movement, and chances are you can just go around the corner and start shooting for 1 order. You can also not spend orders and get an order to use on another model. Bulleteer starts in a position that should be in total cover. I just don't think the EB really truly beats the Bulleteer here.
I think the BSG + LRL EB actually fulfills a different role than the Bulleteer, and is a much stronger unit that is harder to compare. It has a wide array of range bands, and doesn't need to win the firefight all the time to drop an impact template and punish bad deployments. It benefits from being hidden because it encourages your opponent to deploy poorly and then capitalizes on it. It's odd angles help with getting blast templates into weird places people wouldn't expect.
Yeah! I can agree with this.
I just seriously don't think I'd ever pay 2 pts more than a Bulleteer for a EB Redfury. The LRL is excellent and I really really hope that's the first one they make.
Mike and Barakial and Colbrook are right.
While the bulleteer is good, its role is different to the EB. just the fact that AD deploys almost where it wants makes the threat range of the 2 on the table vastly different
Try fighting your own Kamau.
While an EB isnt great vs the kamau it can deploy and move to eliminate the other members of the link. conversely the Bulleteer can be locked down utterly
Believe it or not the Bulleteer has better odds that EB of killing that ARO piece, because you can put support ware up.
Regardless I don't think the EB Redfury is the right tool for somehow sneaking into VIRD's deployment zone and taking out the non sniper linkteam members either.
I would also like to note that the Bulleteer and EB have completely different approach vectors, so even if they were identical profiles they are going to perform differently.
But in the end, I can see that you REALLY like the Buleteer for the role you feel like the EB fills. I think that's what I love about this game, you aren't wrong. If that's the tool that feel best for solving the problem you want to solve, then that will make you a better player.
the point was the EB doesnt need to fight that ARO piece.
Your also looking at the odds of the bulleteer getting under 24, something by no means garraunteed
And marksman'd to ignore cover....
Or did you forget the Kamau ignores the ODD?
When all you have is a Bulleteer, every problem looks like it needs a bullet. Am I right folks?
No Daboarder I didn't think Kamau multi sniper ignores ODD. Yes I did apply the support ware, because as long as we're imagining scenarios like fighting the best ARO piece in the game we might as well imagine having a hacker to put support ware up, which is something you have total control over.
With Marksmanship Bulleteer is bs 15 compared to Echo Bravo bs 13, so it wins out.
I get what you're saying, re: positioning and link team support. But still, just because there's one scenario where it may win out doesn't mean they're 'even', the Bulleteer reigns supreme in my mind for the vast portfolio of things it can do with it's b4 gun. And there's no guarantee the EB would be in a position to take out link team members. I think the Echo Bravo BSG is better suited for killing non-ARO link team members.