This is actually good design, but only when you look at it at a higher level. If AHDs existed but KHDs didn't, it would be impossible to take TAGs or HI links because of the risk of assault hacking. Since KHDs are cheaper, taking an AHD risks the enemy having a counter to it. High cost units should be counter by mid-cost units, which should be countered by low cost units, which should be countered by high cost units -- that's good design.
The problem is that this kinda falls apart in execution. For many players TAGs and HIs damage potential and increased durability isn't high enough to offset the cost and vulnerability to hacking. This means there's little incentive to take AHDs for their primary function, especially after the introduction of KHDs. So this might need some tweaking at both ends, as outlined above; making Hackable give a discount, like Frenzy does, and slightly nertfing KHDs to make them dangerous but not as deadly as they are now. Additionally buffing DHDs, WHDs, and Shield programs in general would be useful; particularly giving them ability to defend other units, adding another layer to the hacking game.
I think you're definitely right about this -- CB has made some design decisions since N3 and forward that really prohibit elite, smaller lists from being as effective as 20 order spam lists.
Actually since N3 they've made some moves in the opposite direction. Limited Insertion lists protected from taking orders away, Fatality for all TAGs, HIs being generally more robust, Lt. L2 seems to push the idea of elite Lt's further, too. One of the main problems with heavier units is that ARM is usually very unreliable, until hitting values 5-6. TAG in cover will be hard to shift, aside from crits. Standard HI - not so much. One idea I've been nursing is expanding the "signature abilities" of Hacking Devices to all devices. KHDs ignore Firewalls. WHDs have their pseudo Sixth Sense. DHDs should be able to protect other hackable troops, while AHDs should get +1 Burst bonus in active turn. That last change would put some more pressure on hackable units, though, so they'd require a buff as well.
How about a simple solution, KHD stay the same but no longer count as specialists nor do they allow you to take rems.
Not bad, but a big problem is that KHDs are basically a hard counter for AHDs. There's very little an AHD can do to a Killer Hacker. Effectively, in order to allow your AHD to do anything, you need to bring a KHD along with it. Infiltrating AHD needs an infiltrating KHD (or at least FD2) to cover it. Example: Taking the 'Yu Jing Roulette' set of Daofei AHD, Guilang MSR, and Guilang Minelayer means that you also need a Ninja KHD, hidden deployed almost on top of the Daofei (or on top of where you want the Daofei to reveal and hack).
I don't really subscribe to the idea that KHD counters AHD so completely. As long as your AHD can stay in marker state until you've prepared the table a bit, it's no more or less vulnerable than any unit is to any source of conventional firepower. Namely, the presence of a KHD doesn't mean all AHDs automatically die or are useless. KHDs are not a "hard counter" to AHDs (I'm sorry, this term had no place in Infinity, a game that's built entirely around the concept of the "soft counter.) Played a game recently. Guess what? My opponent shot my KHD, then used an AHD to hack my TAG. Good gameplay. The AHD rendered an expensive TAG almost entirely useless, because my opponent applied good tactics when using it. But he had the advantage of masking the AHD via Camo State. So I think the proper casualties in this situation are the non-marker state AHDs, who lack the concealing factor or tactical control to initiate on their terms. KHDs are strong and cheap, but only against an ultra-niche portion of the game.
I'm not sure on the what should counter what part. But before KHDs hit, TAGs and HIs were useful, if not, it was not because of AHD, but because everything dies, even expensive troops with ARM3, so it's just better to spam orders. Problem with KHD, as other have said, that it hard counters AHD, and since AHD is only good against TAGs and HI (maybe REMs, can't remember, long time no see), and you have other ways to deal with them (like dirt cheap warbands or just bring your own, bigger troop with bigger camouflage), you bring even less AHD. And there's De Fersen, with his accidental AHD, who were a good hacker before (WIP14, BTS6), but since now KHD trumps every hacker with ease, you just can't wave around a 60pts dude, waiting until your opponent throws enough order at Redrum (or your EVO's Brainblast or your Hexa KHD get's lucky). So KHD countering AHD, and having less AHD all around it better for Pano in general, as we can use more HI or TAGs (didn't felt that change too much though), but De Fersen and most of our AHD dudes are just gone now, which is a shame.
Yes thats true. But it completly suck for this (broad) selection of units with AHD but without Marker state, especially those "expensive" ones (FK AHD, Fersen, and poor pathetic ORC AHD). Many strong KHD factions also have an quite easy access to pitchers, so your AHD is in danger even in the midsts of your DZ. Plus those AHD are still usesless totally against TAK, Tohaa, most of Haqq (almost entirely HB), and actually many parts of OSS. Prime targets of AHD are CA, MO, IA (incoming), vanilla YuJing and probably Tunguska.
This. It really helped to see less AHD and thus HI and TAGs feels "bit safer", but on the other hand you don't see FK AHD (unless mayby Highly Classifieds) or Fersen. Plus PanO is actually a faction with most "AHD specialist only" units (the ones which have to have AHD to be specialist).
Honestly HI and TAGs should be something you take despite AHDs being a thing. Equally AHDs should feel like they're valuable even if your opponent doesn't take HI and TAGs. Hacking should feel like it's an intrinsic part of the game not something you opt into or out of. Ariadna and Tohaa should feel like they're missing something without hacking, but get other cool things in compensation.
Too bad that once you reveal (say, because you opened the doors to an objective room), your Camo AHD can't go back into marker state if you're within Hacking Area of a KHD. As near as I can figure out, only Cautious Move lets an Assault Hacker w/ Stealth ignore the Hacking Area of a KHD, and that's only if you start and end your move out of the Hacking Area. Very much this. Most of the N3 hacking changes were really good, because it made hacking more important. Then HSN3 introduced Killer Hackers, which really made AHDs just about pointless.
They miss out some classifieds! Also Ectros and Gorgos is hackable, while Vet Kazak is not, because it's so low tech. The rest of ariadna HI are actually low tech, like dudes with W1, dodged and ARM3-5. #bringbackDeFersen!!!
I've had a chance to not only see the Gorgos, but re-possess it 3 turns in a row, good times :P But I agree about AHD being very situational at least for me - I have hard time running other AHDs than suprise Croc Man in the middle of the board.
Sukeul shoots better than either of them, W2+ Symbiont is where fire weakness kicks in, Gorgos is a big blob of unreparability that's afraid of HFT (everythings afraid of HFT, but Gorgos is scared shitless), and Tohaa doesn't have hacking game to protect their hackable stuff. Ok, maybe there wasn't a question of why...
And zero repeaters, so she actually has to walk up to each and every AHD dudes, to murder them personally. It's just easier to shoot them in the face. And better. Always go with plan A!
IMO almost all of AHDs problems would be solved if they got a little cheaper. take away the .5 SWC tax and make them ~4 points. This way it doesn't feel like such a investment that might come back and bite you in the ass. My problem is with any given unit that has the option of taking a KHD OR an AHD, I'm going with KHD every time, all the time. They're not the worst thing in the game, they just don't fill out their niche well enough. A KHD attacking an AHD is about the closest thing we get to a "hard counter" in this game.
I was thinking more about keeping the AHD out of the action completely until you've had a chance to hunt some KHDs. Moving the AHD into range of camo tokens or Repeaters that could allow a KHD to operate isn't any kind of move I'd recommend. Essentially following with the AHD, rather than leading with it, and using Camo state to mask the AHD's identity.
