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New Teucer

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by Kortz, Dec 7, 2018.

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Do you think Teucer is now Better, Worse or simply Different?

Poll closed Dec 21, 2018.
  1. Better

    16 vote(s)
    53.3%
  2. Worse

    7 vote(s)
    23.3%
  3. Different

    7 vote(s)
    23.3%
  1. sorniak

    sorniak Well-Known Member

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    buuuut....linked missle launcher has some orders with him, not a dead weight ?... I just want to hear some succesfull stories with Teucer, not theories... because I've put him on table several times, I've fought against him and alway my experience was...so-so...

    and some interesting math vs linked Fusiliers - Missile Launcher (everyone shoots in + range):

    Samekh Rebots (please note shock wasn't included)
    Active Player
    61.00% Samekh Rebots inflicts 1 or more wounds on Fusiliers (Unconscious)
    52.30% Samekh Rebots inflicts 2 or more wounds on Fusiliers (Dead)

    Teucer MMLX
    Active Player
    59.45% Teucer (MSV 2) inflicts 1 or more wounds on Fusiliers (Unconscious)
    31.66% Teucer (MSV 2) inflicts 2 or more wounds on Fusiliers (Dead)
    ....Or better if Teucer outranges missle launcher
    Active Player
    66.98% Teucer (MSV 2) inflicts 1 or more wounds on Fusiliers (Unconscious)
    33.01% Teucer (MSV 2) inflicts 2 or more wounds on Fusiliers (Dead)

    And for comparasment:

    Myrmidon with spitfire
    Active Player

    59.13% Myrmidons inflicts 1 or more wounds on Fusiliers (Unconscious)
    23.42% Myrmidons inflicts 2 or more wounds on Fusiliers (Dead)

    Phoenix with +1 burst from link team
    Active Player
    62.07% Phoenix inflicts 1 or more wounds on Fusiliers (Unconscious)
    48.91% Phoenix inflicts 2 or more wounds on Fusiliers (Dead)

    Nagas sniper which make outrange for missle launcher:
    Active Player
    60.63% Nagas inflicts 1 or more wounds on Fusiliers (Unconscious)
    34.61% Nagas inflicts 2 or more wounds on Fusiliers (Dead)
     
  2. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I think Im misunderstanding something here. Like I agree a linked missile is generally pretty solid and has some nice upsides. But It also takes some more points and thats the trade off. When we're comparing Teucer to other options more and less expensive it seems like he fits in pretty reasonable mathematically right? He looks to compare with the cheaper Myrmidon and Naga again'st their favoured targets right? But he brings heavier caliber shells and MSV in case TO or TAGs are your targets of choice? So that's what you're paying for. If you expect to run into TO snipers, and TAGs more often then Teucer has more value if not then hes probably too expensive.

    Teucer MMX vs. a Cutter would be like the ideal target right?

    Teucer MMX Vs. Cutter
    63.62% to Win/19.88% to do nothing/16.5% to lose

    Myrimidon vs. Cutter
    42.7% to Win (Note: Does less wounds on average)/ 41.65% to do nothing/15.63% to lose.

    Linked Samekh Vs. Cutter
    38.25% to Win/20.72% to do nothing/41.03% to lose.

    Pretty good return on investment if you expect to have to punch a Cutter/avatar/etc out most games :P
     
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  3. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    I think the Avatar would be the ideal, but about the same. 60.5%/23%/16.5%. That darn point of armor makes a difference
     
  4. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Then you bring some into the equation, which Aleph and Steel Phallus get reliably and relatively inexpensively.
     
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  5. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    You should do the same maths against mimetic and TO troops. There is little point in using an MSV-2 troop against standard troops, especially when the core of your army is made with ODD troops (for Steel Phalanx).

    The main problem is that Teucer competes with Atalanta and the standards agemas, and while Teucer is very good, he is more expensive than them. But is he more powerful ? That's very debatable. His niche is highly armored targets: cutter, jotum, avatar ... The feuerbach is the best weapon among all we have to fight these TAGs, Teucer is a very good shooter, and he can use the smoke trick nicely against them (their size, power and cost make it interresting to spend an order throwing smoke for Teucer). So if in your meta these tags are a common occurrence, then Teucer is the one you need. For nearly everything else, Atalanta or your standard agema are better for their prices.
     
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  6. sorniak

    sorniak Well-Known Member

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    weeeelll....Teucer vs Avatar\Cutter - nice example.... but is that smth what happens so often on table? Probably depends on meta. But again, using some imagination - you won't kill Avatar\Cutter - after this duel, those guys probably will go to total cover + in order to use MMLX you need to already see TAGs, before that Teucer would've already have some duel. Maybe, by using smoke - but again, where to find an expirience enemy who would leave AROing his TAGs, knowing you have smoke and msv2 with heavy weapon?
     
  7. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    Depending on the scenery and the initiative, the opponent may not be able to hide the TAG from every angle. On another hand, if he knows you have Teucer somewhere, he will be very careful with how he will move the TAG and will have to spend several orders parking it safe - Teucer may influence the game even if he just stay in total cover.
    But i agree, this is probably something that rarely happens, unless you have absolute avatar-loving people in your meta.
     
  8. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    But he is BS 14, +6 from MMX, that is 20. Granted, he ignores the -3 from cover, so the Feuerbach will let him reach 23, and that means he rolls 1d20+3, aiming for the highest number he can and getting 20% crit chance. I fail to see where is that "change in BS nad loss of MSV", though.

    As for TR drones, all snipers were able to, as long as they had a visual -6 to drop on them (-3 from cover, -3 from range, -6 from smoke/ODD/TO), so that has not changed.

    Nope, if the enemy deploys in total cover you already won a lot of leeway in moving your troops, which has value on its own. If you can get an enemy from Teucer, then your work is simple: order 1 drop smoke blocking the sight, order 2 move Teucer and either Discover or shoot against an enemy unit, order 3 MMX.
    That is, you want to shoot/discover if you moved. He is a MI, so his second movement is much limited... 6 inches (15cm) for a move+move is not the way for an unlinked troop.

    If I can choose between linking a Smart Missile launcher and a regular one, I will pick always the smart one. It can make Guided attacks (which the non-smart cannot), but it also can make regular shoots, and has NO bad range... so it can roll from 12 to 18, specially with Assisted Fire (making the EXP AP+DA shots shock too, and ignoring totally the enemy cover). In fact, giving the Samekh a smart missile launcher linkable profile and an MSV2, we get a better troop than Teucer (since while the bot does not have that NWI, it is inmunne to Shock!)
     
    #28 xagroth, Dec 11, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
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  9. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    Agreed with everything.

    Just a little reminder, smart missile is AP+DA on both mode, it does not have any EXP shot. On the other hand, it is an AP template weapon (a few if not the only weapon in the game to have this). Not that it would change much to the unfortunate one on the bad side of the missile :p
     
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  10. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    Teucer's MSV gains a lot of value vs troops that rely on TO/ODD to dislodge (Armand, TO snipers, etc). When making low burst attacks every number you can add over 20 is a big deal because it not only increases your chance to crit, but removes possible winning rolls from your opponent. Does that explain my thinking?

    Sure TR drones are definitely able to be dealt with. Teucer just also deals with some of the troopers that like to deal with TR bots, and doesn't cost too much more than a TO Sniper would.

    I think I missed something somewhere along the way. Arming a Rui Shi with a smart missile and sticking it in a link would be interesting...
     
  11. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    One downside to Smart Missiles is that they have no hit mode, so the opponent can use their Xenotech or HVT to make themselves immune.
     
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  12. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Atalanta is 39pts for a base BS of 17, with MSV2 and burst 2 (DA or AP ammo). The basic Agema is around 30ish... you can fit another Chain Rifle mirmidon with that sniper for Teucer's actual cost.
    In Vanilla, people deploy the mk2 TO (I prefer the mk4, but because it's a "waste orders here, thanks", not because I want a hunter) or the Asura Spitfire (closer range, but...) to negate enemy Visual mods/make the smoke combo. And the Asura Spitfire is barely 30pts more expensive and 0.5SWC more :/

    Frankly, Teucer is now in the uncomfortable place where good troops wait forever because there are other options that suddenly are that little more attractive.

    Sure thing, but... AP+DA+Shock Burst 2 at BS 15 ignoring cover... yummy. And if the Samekh can't fire... he's in a Fireteam, there are more weapons to bear! XD
     
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  13. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    Its interesting 30 more points on the Asura is ok but 9 more on Teucer is bad :P

    vs. Atalanta 9 pts for a beefier gun, higher max BS, V:NWI and Climbing Plus sounds like a good deal to my ears. But I've never been a big fan of the greeks let alone the characters.

    That being said I certainly agree that Teucer is not a blind pick. I just dont think he is in a terrible place. He brings enough to the table that I can comfortably look at him and say "Yeah maybe thats the tool I need". I do think he heavily favours certain metas but thats to be expected too. Even just weapon choice varies by meta.

    At the end of the day you need to be building a list with him in mind to really make him attractive. Thats part of the game. Hell I find myself not grabbing many Nagas or Dasyu in OSS lately despite the fact they are some of my favorite troopers.
     
  14. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    As to the new skills I think Climbing Plus is a huge boon to him. Being able to change heights quickly is powerful when you learn to use it right and the angles you can get while hanging on the sides of buildings can be hard for people to plan around.
     
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  15. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    That I can agree with troops costing 50-60 points or more... for a 40-ish NWI one, nope. In an "elite army" like Aleph, that is where the "mid-field" is, between 25 and 40-42 points.

    I disagree your comparison is 100% ok. The Asura brings Auto Discover of enemy Camo Markers, Burst 3-4 (and possibly H+ device, which is a greater toolbox, but not in the damage output department against heavy enemies) and an extra full wound making her inmunne to Shock (plus 3 more ARM value, being ARM 8 against close weapons is nothing to sneeze at). She is that much pricier, I agree, but the Deva Spitifre is 33pts 1SWC if we want to compare weapons (sure, he's BS12, but can impose a -9 to the enemy with a smoker Myrm and cover).

    Atalanta Vs Teucer is a more correct comparison: she can't go to "virtual BS 23" like Teucer by ignoring enemy cover and shooting in good range (of which she has a bigger one, however), but she doesn't need to go down to Burst 1 to do so either (so she shoots at 17 with Burst 2 DA ammo). I'd say they are on par offensively at this moment, making Teucer paying nearly 10 more points than her for the NWI, which makes him a little better as an ARO piece (but too expensive to risk as such, now!!!), the problem is that Terrain rules are almost never used, and a sniper like Teucer or Atalanta tend to not move so much you need the Climbing Plus (for moving a lot you place them on the ground, not on a nest). Now, personally, I would have said OK to giving Teucer Super Jump instead of both Multiterran and Climbing Plus.
    Specially since that, by Hellois ruling during the Wotan online campaign, Multiterrain is not the same as Terrain:X (despite the RAW being clear that you change Multiterrain to one Terrain of your choice at the start of the game...).

     
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  16. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    While i rate climbing+ highly, i don't think it's very good on Teucer. It's very, very good on highly mobile troops. It's very good on zayin and rudras because it allows whose murder machines to easily find nasty spots to shoot at the enemy. But Teucer is not 15/10, he is 10/5. So this is highly dependant on him having fitting high terrain very close to his starting position.
     
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  17. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    So something I was looking at today. Is how good the Kamau MSR in a link is. Because it seems to be the new hotness for ARO dominant link teams, I've been pondering how to deal with it effectively.

    Teucer actually has a really good match up vs. the Kamau. Like, really good. Possibly the best long range match up in the game. Better than the Marut vs. the Kamau good.
     
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  18. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    HMm. those are some interesting numbers. Though I'd probably be more inclined to drop some White Noise and work at the other units first (if possible) or at least limit to a single ARO if they are running 2 with something else.

    A linked Dakini MSR with supportware is 41.11% to wound with DA ammo (24.07% no result, 34.82% take a wound) and the HMG is even better
     
  19. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    And you can throw some whitenoise if by chance one of his buddies is in sight too.
     
  20. Spinnaker

    Spinnaker Vanguard Officer

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    Sure, but the chances are that you already had two netrods on the field. I've always thought of a single order as being worth 8 points because of Flash Pulse/Baggage remotes