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New Player: Q about Move + Super-Jump

Discussion in 'Rules' started by KGG, Jun 4, 2019.

  1. KGG

    KGG New Member

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    Hi, New Forum member and new Infinity player here. I have just started getting into Infinity after stumbling across it (and the fantastic models) a few months ago. I got the Operation: Icestorm starter and have played a few of the introductory missions and have been trying to get a handle on the additional rules not covered in the starter set. As a newcomer I am struggling a bit with the huge number of possible order combinations and interactions between them.

    My question is about the validity of a Move + Super-Jump order.
    Using something like a Hollow Man MOV 6-2, can you declare Move to move 6", then declare Super-Jump as the second part of the order to jump 'horizontally as many inches as the first value of his MOV Attribute', thereby moving another 6"?

    The 'structure of an order' wiki page allows 'any one short movement skill + any one short movement skill', making Move+SJ valid, although bullet 4 of the super-jump wiki page seems to give the option of a 6+2 'mighty jump', which might be intended to counter this.

    Any help is appreciated,
    Thanks
     
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  2. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    You can do two things with super-jump:
    Turn the Jump order from Long to Short order
    Make a full order of Jump adding together both movement values in the profile.

    reading http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Move we can see that the second part of the order, if i's move, will use the second M value of the model. So, RAW, you will move 6'' walking and 2'' jumping.
     
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  3. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I also got it as @xagroth described it, but revising Super Jump i can see that @KGG is right. If you check Super Jump the first two bullet points are these:
    So RAW you will use the first M value even when jumping with your second move skill of the turn. If that's not the RAI it should be stated, that's not even cover in the examples, in all of them the model is jumping using the first action.
     
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  4. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Jump (and therefore Super-Jump) follow the General Movement Rules, with the first bullet being:
    • MOV values indicate the maximum distance the unit can move, but there is no minimum. Troopers do not have to exhaust their movement when they declare Move.
    Moving 6" and then jumping 6" is therefore not allowed.

    And the MOV Attribute itself:
    The amount of inches this trooper can move with an Order. The MOV Attribute usually has two values: the first time the trooper moves in an Order, and the second.​
     
  5. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    It makes sense, and i'll play it that way.
    But these 2 points from Super Jump doesn't agree with the general rules as it point how to handle a 2 order jump and a 1 order jump but doesn't make any distinction about in which order you are moving with the single order:
    And as rules about special cases > rules about general cases, RAW it doesn't say that.
    I'll take your word as an official rulling, but this one should be FAQed.
     
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  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Welcome @KGG!

    Listen to what @ijw says, he's one of the primary English proofreaders of the rules and maintainer of the wiki.
     
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  7. siri

    siri Active Member

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    hi guys.

    unfortunately i have committed a failure posting about Super Jump in Stealth post. So to avoid confusion i´ll bring it to here.



    my question was:

    Can i do Super Jump Cautious movement ?


    and some people even questioned about im trying to use to entire order skills at the same time, but i´ll explain in details and share my conclusion to ask for your point:


    first:

    SUPER-JUMP AUTOMATIC SKILL


    Movement, Optional.


    REQUIREMENTS


    EFFECTS


    This Special Skill alters the user's Jump Skill from an Entire Order Skill to a Short Movement Skill.


    It also allows the user to jump vertically, diagonally or horizontally as many inches as the first value of his MOV Attribute.


    Super-Jump allows its user to declare other Short Movement Skills or Short Skills (Jump + BS Attack, for example) while jumping in the air.


    The user may declare the Jump Skill as an Entire Order to add up both his MOV values into one single mighty jump.


    However, as with the Jump Skill, the user cannot benefit from Partial Cover MODs while in the air. The user of Super-Jump may benefit from Partial Cover MODs (assuming all other requirements are met) while on the ground, at the beginning and end of the jump


    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    So i highlighted the main points of the skill.


    second point:



    Both Common and Special Skills can also be divided into:



    Automatic Skills Automatic Skills are those that can be employed without expending an Order or ARO. Consequently, these Skills do not require a Roll.



    Short Movement Skills To declare one of these Skills, the user must expend one Short Movement Skill.

    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________


    could be me but i think besides the bad wording can be employed without expending an Order or ARO that´s in most of the cases false, it doesn´t need to roll or have preparation and can be used together another complementary skill like: SHORT MOVEMENT SKILLS.




    Third:


    CAUTIOUS MOVEMENT ENTIRE ORDER


    Movement, No LoF, No Roll.


    REQUIREMENTS


    At the moment of declaration, the user must be outside the LoF and the Zone of Control of all enemy figures and Markers.


    EFFECTS


    Allows the user to move up to the first value of his MOV Attribute, generating no AROs to enemies in the process.


    For this Cautious Movement to generate no AROs, it must end at a location that is also outside the LoF and the Zone of Control of all enemy figures and Markers.


    When you declare Cautious Movement, you can measure the distance to your intended destination to see if this Entire Order Skill is viable. If it is not, the trooper follows its declared route, but does not enjoy the other benefits of Cautious Movement, so enemies might ARO as usual.


    You cannot use Cautious Movement inside the Zone of Control of an enemy.


    Cautious Movement must follow the General Movement rules as well as the Moving and measuring sidebar, both of which are explained in the Move Common Skill rules.


    IMPORTANT!


    TAG, Remotes, Motorcycles and Vehicles can never declare Cautious Movement.


    REMEMBER


    Troops in Hidden Deployment are neither figures nor Markers, so they cannot react to a Cautious Movement even if they have LoF.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    So Cautious movement is a Entire ORDER and uses the first value of his MOV attribute.


    as we can see, till now we haven´t used any ORDER, only when declaring the Cautious Movement, because Super Jump is a labeled as MOVEMENT and automatic.
    The skill Super Jump only changes if i want to use both my MOVES!

    So, just to be clear, i haven´t found it anywhere, and sorry if i have failed in search, the conclusion i came is i can cautious movement and SUPER JUMP, as the same is possible in climb + ( as we see in those ninja moves, they running in the wall till the floor and killing or Batman taking the last bandit of the line and bring him up.)

    right?
     
  8. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Love it XD.

    Good try but it doesn't work that way, it's true the automatic skill doesn't use any action/roll but that doesn't mean you can use them whenever you want. Super-Jump is modifiying how the common ability Jump works. So, each time you can legaly use a short movement skill, you can now use jump because Jump is now a short movement skill; but that doesn't let you use jump when you are not allowed to.

    For example, with Super-Jump you can stealth-jump because it is stated in the ability, in cautious movement you are instructed to move not to use a short movement skill; so you will do it using the general movement rules (but with the exception of those that states "by declaring move" as you aren't declaring it) following the requirements of Move.
     
    #8 Ogid, Jun 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
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  9. siri

    siri Active Member

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    Trully i accept, but don´t understand.

    ok! i see the part that MOVE effectively is a separated skill. It should be much more easier if move (short skill move) encompasses all forms of movement. Specially when you have the part of the automatic skill.

    but thanks for the explanation. I never used super jump this way, so no damage.
    and i´ll keep using the way you explain!
     
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  10. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    The key part is that Cautious Movement is it's own kind of movement skill, exactly like, Move, Jump or Climb. It's not a skill that let you alter how you use other skills like Stealth, Super-Jump or Climbing-Plus are.

    Cautious Movement in a nutself is: Entire Order ability that let you move using the rules in the common ability Move (but using only your first MOV value) generating no ARO between the initial point and the final point if you are out of LoF at the end of the movement. That's all.
    Super-Jump let you alter the common skill Jump, but you aren't using Jump in Cautious Movement, so Super-Jump does nothing there.
     
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  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It's worth pointing out that Climbing Plus works differently and will work during a Cautious Move.

    Climbing Plus changes how you are allowed to move on a fundamental level:

    "Climbing Plus allows the user to move along vertical surfaces as if executing a normal Movement on horizontal ground."

    Whereas Superjump merely changes how the Jump skill operates.
     
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  12. siri

    siri Active Member

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    Ok. But based in the topic about surprise shot and lean on, where's @ijw talk about surprise shot work due to LABELED BS ATTACK, I should point that the first part of superjump is LABELED as Movement, same as Cautious movement.
    Lean on is a entire order skil composed of move+bs att.
    Surprise shot is considered a short skill and, as said before, considered as a BS att, every time you read BS att, you can trade for surprise shot if requirements meets.

    Climb plus alters the user's climb skill from entire order to a short movement skill.
    Super jump alters the jump skill from a entire order to a short movement skill.

    So based on the LABELED part of MOVEMENT I can't see difference from climb plus and can't see why it can't be super jump cautious movement. ( if used the first part of the sentence / skill) by RAW and the description in the climb plus topic, since super jump allows JUMP+BS ATTACK I can even jump surprise shot ( don't know if has a unity capable of) maybe a khawarij KHD if it exist. ( edited - found the Rodok)

    Sorry for been touching in this subject again, but with one of my game group +25 players we agreed in the subject.
    Of course we all could be reading or interpreting it wrong, but I don't suppose so !
    Again I think I can use the first part of my movement, be it any kind of movement, fly, swim, jump, rolling or whatever if you meet the criteria of use the first part of your move, from total cover to total cover you can MOVE ( any kind) in cautious movement.

    Unfortunately I'm in a old tablet and I can't go to the surprise shot topic to link this one showing why I got this conclusion.

    Thanks again for patience and explanation!
     
    #12 siri, Jun 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Because the FAQ is specific to BS Attack.

    But in any event, Cautious Move doesn't say 'execute a Movement' it explains fully how to execute that move. Compare Dodge which says 'In Reactive Turn only, a successful Dodge allows the user to Move—or use another Short Movement Skill that doesn't require a Roll—up to 2 inches', which allows you to perform Dodge (Jump) if you have the skill Superjump.

    To spell it out:

    Surprise Shot is part of the class 'BS Attack'. Entire Order BS Attacks allow you to perform any of that class of Skills.

    Cautious Move is part of the class 'Movement'. Cautious Move does NOT allow you to perform any other Movement skill as part of it.

    Dodge is part of the class 'Movement'.
    In Reactive, Dodge allows you to perform any other Short Movement Skill.

    Climbing Plus modifies how movement is conducted in other movement skills.

    Superjump modifies the Jump skill into being a Short Movement Skill.

    Yes it's, in some respects, annoying and yes it's not intuitive or obviois but it's not unclear once you break it down.
     
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  14. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    As inane.imp says, anything labelled BS Attack can be used, because the FAQ says that’s how the BS Attack Label works. There is no equivalent FAQ entry for any other Label, not even for CC Attack.
     
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  15. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Don’t worry to ask.

    I like that you use the term RAW, because that’s just what you have to try. In a wargame you can only do something if the rules say so. In this particular case you are saying that every time the game tell you explicitly to move in a particular way (not to use a short movement skill), then you can use any short movement skill instead of following what the ability say. If you find a line in the rules that let you do that, then you can (hint: there is no such line).


    I have not read the ijw thread but let me guess, the question was if you can lean out from a marker state and use surprise attack. In this case lean out is an ability that is saying you will perform the 2 short abilities move + BS attack in a very particular way, the doubt is that “BS attack”. Must it be the common skill “BS attack” or you can use “surprise shot” that also counts as a BS attack?

    To be fair, I’m not sure. But the doubt here is, you have been told to use this particular skill (BS attack) so, can you use surprise shot that is also the same kind of skill or you have to explicitily use the common skill BS attack? It would make sense that you could use any BS attack, but it could be both so in this case a clarification from devs is handy.

    I can see where you guys are getting lost but this case is different. Cautious movement is not an entire order that is saying that you “use a short movement skill” in this particular way. It is saying move exactly in this particular way. It’s true that this ability is describing how you would move using the short movement skill move, but it’s not giving you any way to use other short movement skill you could use in its place, so you can’t use any other short movement skill in its place. As said before, you have to follow the RAW.

    What is confusing is in particular case is that in this game the common skill “move” is both a basic skill and the “default” way to describe how to move. So if you are told to use a SHORT MOVEMENT SKILL, then you can use the COMMON SKILL MOVE or any other that you can fit in its place (jump with super jump for example). But if you are told to MOVE like this, then it’s not an ability you can exchange for other similar, but a description of how that particular ability works.

    Clearer now?
     
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  16. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    You can use any BS Attack because there is an FAQ saying that anything with the Label counts as a BS Attack:

    Q: Are Skills with the BS Attack label considered to be BS Attacks or other Skills when declaring a Coordinated Order? For example, could a Coordinated Order be made where one of the members declares Surprise Shot, another Forward Observer and a third troop shoot with a rifle?
    A:
    They are considered to be BS Attacks, so can be combined in a Coordinated Order.
     
  17. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Ty ijw.

    I just didn't express it well in this case. I know how that works, just wanted to make a point about how that case could be clear without making the jump when i want to move case factible.
     
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  18. siri

    siri Active Member

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    I

    Thanks again. @ijw and @Ogid

    It's just confusing when, in my opinion, rules are treated differently.

    I completely understand all your posts and explanations but, even with the FAQ I just, again, think is confusing and unintuitive treat one kind of item by the Label and others don't.

    We here in Brazil are really trying to keep updated with the rules and follow them by the book, keeping it common and singular with all the community, just to avoid wrong use in ITS tournaments, in or outside our country, including avoiding house rules to avoid confusion.


    But thanks for all your patience and kindness and sorry for my bad English, because my native language is Portuguese.
     
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  19. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Infinity rules are harder than other games, so yeah, you'll find a lot of these kind of confusing rules.
    If you don't have any experienced player, then the forum is a good place to learn how the rules really works.
    Good luck and don't be shy to ask!
     
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  20. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    each Label is unique, and they have specific effects. The BS Attack Label rules say those skills (the ones that have that label) are considered as a BS Attack. The FAQ reinforce that comprehension that because they are all considered BS Attack then it follows that they can be coordinated together.

    • BS Attack. The use of this Special Skill or piece of Equipment is a form of BS Attack.
    • CC Attack. The use of this Special Skill or piece of Equipment is a form of CC Attack.
    • Movement. The use of this Special Skill or Equipment is a form of Movement.
    In the first two, the skill/equipment is a form of a specific Skill (that coincidentally is named the same as the Label). In the last one, Movement is not a skill. There is a skill called Move. But Movement is not a form of Move.
     
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