Maybe you didn't get the memo about ALL HI (good and bad) getting cost reductions because rebalancing to ARM costs and prolly to offset the hackable weakness, but it's no wonder, probably you were too busy spreading shit Btw I never said Su Jian is not a beast and one of the best HI out there (not perfectly optimized tho, it's missing Mimetism for that), all I'm saying it's maybe the discount for HI it's not as big as it seems and there is something else going on with EVAders like it was with Hollowmen, namely CB cheating their own point system, which seems like a recurring theme lately with all the Mimetism and NWI+Si going around with 0 point bloat throw in useless stats and skills. The other N4 profiles we have seen were not as egregious as EVAders.
I find Evaders are decently priced if you compare them to N3 Hortlak Janissaries or N3 Zhencha or N3 Tanko Same point range - different abilities like Camo / mimetism / Infiltration / Impetious etc. Let's wait for the N4 Profiles of other "light" HI :)
I fail to see how Zencha can even begin to compare to EVAders when he is 10 points more expensive while having worse attributes, worse equipment and no shock immunity even if they get discounted like 5 points in N4 (I'm not sure he will tho because Camo is probably going up in price in N4). And to be honest you should be comparing them to Haidao or Zuyong. Indeed, let's wait for N4, but this really seems like pure power creep on the heels of the rest of the power creep seen lately.
The comparison of the Evader to the Zhuyong is as bad as to any other "real" HI. And thanks for mentioning the Haidao - perfect example for a 24-37pts "light" HI with 1W+NWI - and that is a N3 profile... Really, comparing N3 profiles with N4 profiles is nonsense :)
I think some are betting mixed up with the new guys. The Sombras is equivalent to Zhencha. 1W+NWI mid-table fighter but one is MI and other HI. The Evaders is equivalent to Haidao. 1W+NWI HI specialist and partial gunfighter.
Please don't compare things with what you imagine another troop is going to be in N4. The least you can do for yourself is not use your imagination to upset yourself. Even if you end up right there will be plenty of time for that later.
Uh... I mean it's matchup dependent but N3 Albedo is far from useless. The ability to straight up ignore high power ARO pieces and just spend your first turn actually attacking and gutting what you feel like without having to burn orders fighting the ARO piece is super useful.
Uhm ... no. Or like you said: matchup dependent. On a platform without any deployment skill it is only marginally usefull. A friend of mine, PanO player, tried the Albedo troopers several times and they never worked. Because you are forced to rambo with them during the first turn. Otherwiese you loose Albedo. Without deployment skills this is order intensive. Yes, the Vostok is fast, but it's hackable. In the first turn I can not be sure to already having established hacking superiority and establishing hacking superiority _and_ ramboing the Vostok could be too much for the order pool. I'd say: It might be worth a try, but IMO N3 Albedo wasn't the most useful skill around. To put it carefully. Edit: Albedo on an Infiltrator better yet a camo infiltrator, well, this would be something. But I have to say ... Albedo is at least a rare skill.
Was your friend using Black Friars or Vargar? Granted in N4 hackability may be a real concern with more camo units packing up regular HD and more units propagating Oblivion, but in N3 it's really not the biggest deal. Very few armies can aggressively both mount a repeater network in your face that fast, especially if you have first turn, and even fewer have the capacity to go toe to toe with Nomads in a hacking war as well. Even if all you do is use it to allow the unit to advance under the 16" band for the MSV2 Sniper it's a fairly significant deal. On the Vostok it pushes the odds from 37-37% in the Vostok's favour (if we don't round it, it's really fucking close) at 24" versus the core linked Kamau, to 47-24%. That's a huge swing just for getting into the MSR's +0 band. EDIT: Fixed the maths I had it set wrong by +1 BS skill
Regarding the cries of "doom" and "power creep", may I remind people that Sakiels are 18 points, and would be 16 points if not for Nullifier/Nimbus Grenade tax. Symbiont Armour was costed at 5-6 points for the first wound, and stayed the same when the anti-Fire buff appeared. V:NWI cost about 8 points, and a true second wound about 10 points. Shock Immunity, however, is a dirt cheap skill: Moderators have it. It probably costs around 1 point, putting V:NWI+S at 9 points. These 30-ish points NWI/I(S) units are not that different in cost from Highlander Greys, which lug around a small arsenal. A Highlander Grey with just a Combi Rifle would clock in at about 22 points, with BS13. Losing the Fenzy discount puts that at about 24. Which reminds me, certain factions love their T2 or Viral. Veteran Kazaks are basically exactly these new pseudo HI, and a Boarding Shotgun one costs 35 points AND comes with Mimetism AND Sixth Sense L2 AND 4 ARM (which probably costs the same as ARM3/BTS3). For reference, the Kotail costs 32 points for dual Combis, tearing around at 6-4 and Super-jump, AND has Holoprojector L2. So although these costs may look way too cheap, it's just a matter of seeing them in an unfamiliar context.
Black Friar ... Vargar came too late. Black Friar are not even hackable. Yes, against the Kamau it's great. If I chose to take the 36 points Vostok to counter the 32 points Kamau that's how Infinity works, the counter is more expansive than the offender. The RF Vostok surely has it's uses. B5 Red Fury can't be bad. If I will invest the points, I don't know. But if you run into another Nomads player ... 2 Morans (if they still exist) will ruin your day. Even when going first. Any nowadays Nomads has lots of MSV. Even Wildcats found some old Grenzer goggles. But even without Morans, Hacker Camo Infiltrators (from all factions) are a problem with Vostok. I'm not completely convinced regarding the usability of the Albedo part.
I think your friend had a greater problem of it was on a Black Friar armed with a Multi Rifle. They're... not the best. They require a fairly nuanced understanding of jank tank tactics to get value out of them and if he was using them in Vanilla they're even worse because you want the ability to get link bonuses to toss really long range drop bears. ARO pieces tend to be on the cheap side, expensive ARO pieces don't really work in Infinity because of how the shooting mechanic generally favours the active player so anything purposed to ARO needs to be disposable. I wouldn't read into the cost comparisons too much. Yes, that's a fair concern that hacking in that matchup is a problem but you also need to consider in this matchup countering a ballbusting MSV2 ARO piece, which is what the Albedo is really for, isn't required. So going HAM with the Vostok turn 1 to maximise value isn't really a necessity.
Na, the problem is the Wildcard Kamau In combination with the Fireteam rules. But that's another (sad) story. But ... while we are at it: I am more than curious what they do to the Sineater. I mean, noone uses him anyways, so they can not screw up. I sometimes use him, because he is freaking cool. The model that convinced me to Nomads. But will he gut a buff, so that a dedicated ARO piece will no longer be completely overshadowed by the cheaper Kamau?
Regarding counters and their costs, counters seem to be half that of the buff. MSVL1: 1-2 points MSVL2: 4 points MSVL3: 13 points? (it was considerably more powerful in N2) CH: Mimetism: 2 points CH: Camo: 4 points TO Camo: 10-11 points
MSV1 ought to be cheaper than Mimetism. Because Mimetism works against every unit in the game. But MSV1 only counters the Mimetism units. It has no utility against the "normal" ones. MSV2 can be a bit more expensive because it can fully counter smoke. Additional utility. Still I think that MSV2 should be cheaper than ODD. In N4 MSV1 delivers additional utility (partial smoke counter) so it can be more expensive than in N3. TO and Camo itself should be more expensive than the respective "Mimetism"-levels (Mimetism and ODD) because they deliver marker state or even HD. Again, additional utility. So if the above points costs are right, IMO MSV is too expensive.
Are you considering that MSV is used in conjunction with smoke offensively to kill things with no mimestim? Assuming you're not Pan-O.
How so? MSV is 100% effective vs Mimetism (the most common anti-BS skill) and also CH:Camo (which costs 2x as much), and 50% effective against TO (which costs at least 4x as much). Smoke blinds both parties unless MSVL2/SS is involved. Considering that this is a game renowned for its balance, I think the buffs and counters are appropriately priced, in general.
I think I included it. It's the additional utility from countering smoke. Camo and TO brings Surprise Shot, Marker State, even HD. Comparable. And Marker State is not only Marker State ... it is also hiding information from your opponent, until you use the unit. Yes, I think pricing stuff is complicated, especially combinations. I think I didn't complain about wrong pricing in the past. If I did, hopefully not too much. You know ... what I don't know anymore, I didn't do ... Still I think the counter should be cheaper than the thing countered. If in N3 MSV1 and Mimetism cost the same, it looks wrong to me. ODD was 3 points if I remember right (someone mentioned, I never tried to decode the points formula). Thats pretty cheap. There is a reason why Mimetism was so popular in N3. Dashat-Libertos got it for 1 point ... so 1 point Mimetism and 2 points MSV1 ... no. MSV2 was another story. Like you said. Smoke-Trick, countering Smoke ... additional utility. Has to cost something. In N4 MSV1 ist comparable. Still not as usefull as MSV2 in N3, because -6 is pretty harsh. But with DTW that everyone seems to get these days ... that's another story. Mimetism works against every unit in the game. Against all 15 in your list. MSV1 works only against the Mimetism units in your opponents list. Against all others, it does nothing. So it should cost less. If they should cost the same, MSV1 would have to raise your BS by 3. Then it would be the complete opposite of Mimetism. It would work against every unit in the game and would be countered by Mimetism. But it doesn't. That's why MSV1 in N3 ought to be (way) cheaper than Mimetism. Edit: MSV1 is not fully effective against CH: Camo. It doesn't counter the marker state. It doesn't counter surprise shot, it doesn't give me the information which unit it is. CH: Camo dliveres alot of utility that MSV1 doesn't counter. So comparing MSV1 to CH: Camo can't be right.
Not entirely true, Mimetism works right up until someone is high tech and carries MSV, or is the opposite and is very low tech and carries a chain rifle. Local Phalanx player's greatest fear is 5pt warbands carrying Chain Rifles because they give exactly 0 fucks about how many points he paid to put ODD on his Myrmidons.
Yes, but that doesn't effect pricing of MSV1. Because Chain rifles in this case are another counter of Mimetism/ODD. Mimetism doesn't work against Chain Rifles. MSV1 doesn't work against Chain Rifles. The point still stands: "If they should cost the same, MSV1 would have to raise your BS by 3. Then it would be the complete opposite of Mimetism. It would work against every unit in the game and would be countered by Mimetism. But it doesn't. That's why MSV1 in N3 ought to be (way) cheaper than Mimetism."
