I just wanted to show how ambivalent you are in this question. Its okay to have undeniable skill like dodgin and cc attack and not okay for shooting case. My point of viev that it will be cool to have defferent skills which not counter each other. Almost all linked aro now have msv. Suryats, black friars, wildcats, haidao and etc and i think it will be nice to have something to counter msv. May be bs attack -3 for msv only. Why not? But you just whining that model for 54 points give -3 to all ftf and can kill poor warbands. you just want another poor boring and same units profiles) They just turn kriza in movang with n4 for example.
You made me look at Mowang and now I'm sad. I would take NWI and price drop for -1 Burst in a heartbeat. Whoever priced +1 Burst didn't hear about diminishing returns.
Kriza is without a doubt priced too high, but cheer up and don't be sad; Mowang see table time a lot less than Kriza does and I'd argue for good reason. (Just don't look Gamma up)
O_O Poor Kriza. No wonder Szally overshadows him. Well, the good news is that Szally is prettier than Kriza so at least it's not an ayyar vs asawira kinda thing.
There a lot of examples of units which are doomed to be dust collector. But CB sometimes make a good work to make them alive again, Knauf and Aida now is very good for example. You can notice here units for which your heart hurts and write you thouthts about how to fix them. I also dont understand removing intruder option with combirifle and flamethrower, especially because he's got a miniature.
Yeah, I think giving BS-3 to units with B2 or B3 would be cool. Feuerbachs would be nice to have that, as would some non-mimetic autocannons. I can also see the point of the Kriza being overcosted, since it was supposed to have a stupidly powerful skill and was downgraded to a more reasonable one. Would I swap the Mimetism on the Kriza for marksmanship? Yes. And it would probably become stronger without becoming broken. I do agree Mimetism seems to be a lazily tacked on skill most of the times. It is one of the best costed skills in the game, so a lot of optimized profiles have it.
You just gave yourself the best case scenario for Marksmanship to call it better than BS Attack (-3). If you want a real comparison in the power level of the skills you need to check: Marksmanship trooper/BS Attack (-3) vs a CC Attack (assume MA2) vs a Dodge vs a Mimetic trooper (assuming no MSV) vs a Comms Attack (WIP14) vs Impetuous smoke throwing (PH13) (etc..) And then Active turn and Reactive turn. You can't just nitpick a niche scenario and then claim that "marksmanship gives more bonuses than the BS attack -3"... lol.
in all of cases, if unit can posses bonus by cover, then marksmanship better then bs attack - 3. In this game, 80% of the shooting always goes to a unit with cover bonus (especially in n4) unless you are playing against a Caledonian.
Since I was bored on sunday morning and since this "other hill to die on" entertained me a bit I made some fast calculations. Obiously those took longer than expected and you can blame the sunk cost fallacy for me now throwing my graphics at you. I took the following Troopers and compared their probabilities to hit an plain BS 13 Trooper, both in good range and in cover, in a face to face BS Attack against a BS-Attack and against a Dodge. It's always a single trooper except for the Zhayedan who got also an additional run together with a Haris since this haris costs about the same as the Kriza alone. And then I applied the effects of BS Attack (-3) to the Kriza's opponent which "surprisingly" doesn't change the performance in a Shoot-Shoot scenario but has a significant effect on the Shoot-Dodge scenario. BOLT Spitfire / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 27) KRIZA BORAC Heavy Machine Gun / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 54) SPETSNAZ (Surprise Attack [-3], Camouflage, Mimetism [-3], Decoy [1]) Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (1.5 | 38) ZHAYEDAN (BS Attack [Shock]) Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 33) GHULAM Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11) GHULAM Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11) BS Attack vs. BS Attack As you can see the Zhayedan is relatively speaking the worst solo performer but for the cost of an Kriza Borac he performs like a solo Bolt (but could technically taxi a WIP 14 specialist around). No surprise (attack applied) the Spetsnaz is the top dog here, followed by the Kriza. BS Attack vs. Dodge Pursuing the relativity the opposing trooper is better off just to dodge. And here the Kriza is the easiest to avoid by doing so whilst the Bolt is the the one who has the highest hit potential. Spetsnaz and Zhayedan are the same and again the Haris Zhayedan mimics the Bolt. Now if the Kriza had BS Attack (-3) he'd be the worst enemy of dodging Troopers in this fine selection! In my personal opinion I'm not sure if the most expensive trooper should be the easiest to avoid harm from. But then again it narrativly fits the Nomads' style for me since I've never seen them as the kill at all cost faction in the game. Thus I think the best option would to bestow the BS Attack (-3) skill upon the Taskmasters and everyone will be happy
Sorry for being so blunt: You're just wrong. It's not ambivalent, it's three different things: Dodge doesn't hurt your opponent. Dodge-3 makes you better at avoiding damage, but not at actually causing it. CC-3(Or even -9) CAN hurt your oponnent, but only within a bubble as big as your first MOV skill. So it requires intense order use. Very few models in this game can be into CC with just one order, and all of those require a bit of gambling, even the ones that are built for it, like impersonators and infiltration+6 models. BS-3 is always useful. You're comparing it just in a shoot-shoot situation, but BS-3 is useful in any situation. It's useful against smoke, it's useful against hacking, it's useful even if your opponent just tries to suicide the model and press a button while you shoot at it! It's completely bonkers. I think taking mimetism from the Kriza and giving it Marksmanship instead would make it a more effective sweeper model without bringing it back to "holy fuck this guy is broken" status.
heh, Marksmanship > BS attack -3, when you shoot into cover. Even if a dodge or hacker attack is declared against you. Only if the opponent is out of cover against you, then the BS attack-3 is better
The Kriza's Full Auto skill was based on throwing a ton of lead at the opponent, not on accuracy. Having BS attack -3 is both more thematic and more balanced, because it does leave some advantage to Marksmanship. I'm definitely convinced by this thread: Mimetism was a poor design choice for the Kriza, and should be replaced by BS Attack -3 instead.
Why do you want to call me wrong so much? I just have a different point of view, I don’t see anything game-breaking in giving -3, you are at least trying to give an argument, which is good news. As I said from the very beginning, for a such point cost Kraza can afford this, because he can’t do anything else. I agree that giving -3 to non-ftf action is not cool, but i dont know hot to fix it without maiking it like separate skill. Mostly in tha game we've got situations were everyone shoot at each other, so i dont know how kriza can move through hacking zone to give hacker -3 to hack or i dont understand situation with CC mentioned earlier. We are not whinig when guy with msv shoot at smoke carrier that cant declare smoke dodge with +3, or when you've got surprise shooted and also have -3 on everything. So why can’t a model for a such huge price have an advantage.
I didn't do any math and I didn't even look closely at tristan's work, but if you roll 4+ dice, and your opponent usually rolls 1-2, then getting +3 to your dice is probably more advantegous than giving his dice a -3. And let's be honest, if someone is considering whether to bring Kriza or not he is not wondering if he kills a Taiga, but he is wondering if he gets a linked Kamau. And linked Kamau will have cover 100%. So yeah it is very probable that as far as unit strength is concerned then for Kriza: mimetism < BS attack (-3) < Markmanship
Not sure if I fully understand you here, but: I say you're wrong when you compare BS attack-3 with Dodge-3 or CC Attack-3. BS attack-3 is just plain stronger than the other two and so it shouldn't be compared. Comparing BS attack-3 with Marksmanship is somewhat similar, but I will defend that BS-3 is stronger because BS-3 has no counter. I honestly think giving BS-3 to a model with burst 4 or 5 is bad design because it allows said model to brute force its way through any problem in front of it. Again, the original Kriza was better than pretty much anything on the nomads list. Now, I do agree that the current version of the kriza is kinda meh. And I also agree it would benefit more from having Marksmanship instead of Mimetism. But let's please keep BS-3 away from any model with B4+.
I will collect statistics of 5 games. I have collected statistics from 80% of one game, and I can already see it (picture): I remind you that bs attack -3 is weaker than marksmenship when we shoot into cover.
Just to note that nope... The last bit is wrong. The MOD is applied only against the owner. If there is no iteraction (like BS Attack vs Button-rush), the MOD is not applied.
Funny how opinions differ here. I for myself (and trust me, thats just feeling based on my experience) always prefer bringing down the MODs of my enemies. Lowering their BS means canceling high rolled hits completly, and taking care of my enemy not able to hit me at all (or at least hit me with a lower chance AND lower numbers) is always worth more (to me) than myself beeing in theorie able to shoot at 16 to 18, and my dice decide it´s time for single digits and nat 20´s. Also every negative MOD brings the opponent closer to the sweet sweet point of not able to hit anymore. OR give it to at least one supercheap Nomad unit with 2Wounds and start investing in Yu Jing salt and tears.
