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New Kusanagi Incoming...

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Ignovus, Nov 19, 2019.

  1. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I like them as a single BS13 SSL2 MSR and 4 orders. Sure it'll die, but I wasn't using those SWC anyway, and it gives me an option that keeps warbands honest.

    I don't actually like the Spitfire because by the time I use it the link is usually down one or two members and then it's just an BS10 ARM0 Spitfire that I'd get more benefit out of being another Morlock.

    My issue with seeing them as disposable is that usually they're the core orders of the list.
     
  2. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    Moderators and alguaciles will work better once stuff like "targeted" becomes an efficient order expenditure. I'm kinda thinking that's where code:one and n4 are going given they've said hacking will be better Vs non-hackables
     
  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That's part of what I'm hoping for. But you need to balance guided and Spec Fire in response.

    Spec Fire and Guided are about right for efficiency where they are now. So if you improve the efficiency of getting targetted off you need to decrease the benefits it has to Guided and Spec Fire.

    Personally I'd like to see Guided go, and all just have the same rules. I'd also like to see U-Turn apply to all Spec Fire against targets outside of the Attacker's ZOC.

    This also plays into making Hacking more meaningful against non-Hackable armies, just from a defensive POV.
     
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  4. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Alguaciles are great. Compared to a Moderator for 1pt you get +1BS +1WIP, 1 ARM, a FO Profile, a HMG profile, a Missile Launcher profile, mixed links that are very good, and lose a couple of things that are so situational they are basically marginal. Even the linked pitcher which was a little niche for the Moderators now gets done better by the Tsyklon in the Alguacile link at BS15 with an Xvisor, reliably pushing them out to crazy ranges.

    If you're doing well with Moderators nice job, and it definitely is possible, and I've done it. But you're doing it despite the fact they're much worse comparitively than the cost saving you get for them. It's not about playing them wrong.
     
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  5. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    one of the problems with reverends, is that religious troop is supposed to be a "point discount skill", but in n2 was a costly one and they didn't get a high change of costs form n2 to n3...so they might be wrongly costed. Next is the poor dessign when CB created the hacking haris: They though the +1B in hacking was too powerful so in the end, it could not be done, and they made each hacking program a different skill so in the ARO they were bad choice too. And also, as with the interventors and securitates, it seemed too powerful to give them sixth sense in a core

    I hope CB checks on Kusanagi and not only fix her fireteam options (she deserve being wildcard), but also her points and SWC (but that will not happen)
     
  6. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    1. wildcard is a mistake, and its how you end up with game warping teams that have an overall degenerative effect on the game as it leads to people exploiting holes in the rules system to counter them (See MSV2 snipers and Whitenoise ARO baiting). It is also an boring patch job to update power levels of sectorials with adding anything actually interesting.

    2. Kusanagi getting full core bonuses for far less than her cost again is dumb, which furthers point 1.

    3. BJC (and Nomads as a whole) isn't really the place for rules like wildcard, especially in BJC where the sectorial is made up 3 distinct groups that while they may operate together aren't all the same force so having mass cross pollination of units ruins that theme.

    4. Theme, the fact that all new sectorials (especially reworked ones) all have the same general structure when it comes to fireteams now where wildcard is concerned (and to a lesser extent "counts as") leaves them all feeling bland and samey across them all with no real uniqueness unlike some of the other mixed (though more restrictive) which do add unique and interesting options.

    5. Unit tags, nice easy way to clean up the current confusing clusterfuck that is counts as and wildcard giving units tags for what they are and have fireteam type: tag word cleans it up greatly. for example, if all observance units in BJC had a tag of Observance they then can join a Fireteam (Core/Haris/Duo): Observance, providing they have the skill so you don't end up with stupid shit like Sin Eaters in fireteams, though given current design trends I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
     
  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    This is really simple to use, particularly if you make it "Fireteam: Core is a skill, you need at least one member of the Fireteam to have the skill to form it". Then forming a Fireteam is always Skill + tag. You just leave the tag off units you don't want to form Fireteams: so Sin Eaters are Observance in the fluff, but don't have the tag so can't join the Fireteam.

    You can be more creative with this. I was discussing how in CJC a mixed Fireteam of MB, Wildcats and Tsyklons is really thematic and (particularly in the absence of Wildcards) pretty well balanced. Give this the tag "Boarding Party".

    For the Jag + Massacre Fireteams a tag of 'Lazaretto' would work. This would allow you to give Daks the tags 'Alguicil, Lazaretto' to allow a specialist in the . Sure you lose the fact that you can't have a pure 5 Jag core... but is the additional complexity worth that?

    You could also do thing like say Geckos get the tag 'Boarding Party (Duo only)' or replace FTO with (<TAG>).

    You'd end up with this as the CJC links:

    Alguicil: Core
    Boarding Party: Core/Haris/Duo
    Lazaretto: Core/Haris

    And for BJC links:

    Moderator Corps: Core/Duo
    Observance: Core/Haris
    Vulkanja: Core/Haris

    TJC is weirder, but it's largely:

    Securitate Core
    DSAD Core/Haris
    Crisis Response Haris/Duo
    Hollowmen Core
     
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  8. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I might agree that wildcards, as a rule, was a mistake, but it is not going to be deleted so, why not having some?. Some inputs on that topic: Kusanagi is a superior reverend, if there is an organization inside nomads with some kind of jerarchy, she is at the top of it, and also worked for blackhand, so it makes sense she can go and lead whatever she wants to. Also, if we are forced to continue being the less favored in the leadership part (we don't have command rules, only the +1SWC from kusanagi, and only when she uses her multi, you could count counterintelligence, but that is more an infowar rule) because we are not organized, why should we also be in the group of the most strict fireteams? I do not see why nomads or any of their sectorial is not a place for wildcard rules, more like just the oposite. If we are chaotic enought to not have even a chain of command (in a sectorial with nuns, acholites and military police) then we should also be chaoting enough to have some people that can go with different kind of troopers and work fine with them, specially one of the greatests veterans and hero of the faction in the lore. And about the theme...that is just wrong. Only a few of the new ones have any kind of similar structure.

    Using lore as an excuse for limiting a faction but not using the strong points of the lore to get strenghs in the game, when that is not applied to other factions (that use lore as an excuse just for breaking their bad points) is just wrong
     
  9. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    With N4 around around the corner we don't know what is staying around. It is entirely possible that a lot of the fireteam stuff we have seen lately is CB stress testing the mechanic and seeing how far they can push it before it breaks. Which Wild card did.

    Yes because only one or two of all the new sectorials have their HI/MI slot into their Line infantry teams, with most of the characters being able to do the same.

    Both Nomad's strengths and weakness are in the game it's just that our primary strength (Infowar) isn't that strong at the moment thanks to the nature of the game favouring the use of mass unhackable units. But our other strengths of Asymetrical warfare with a handful of real heavy hitters is alive and strong. And I don't really care if other factions aren't conforming to their lore based Identity/ playstyle that's their problem to deal with, I'd rather not see them all become the same thing (Which is why I loathe current sectorial design with the exception of a few outliers).
     
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  10. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I like wildcards personally. It allows for some interesting combinations, and strengths and weaknesses between factions, and it makes sense and is less boring that heroic characters / leader troops could join whatever team suits. Kusanagi seems like a good candidate to me. It could be cleaner though. I think they should just basically have 'counts as x for fireteams' and Wildcards. You'd lose a tiny bit of nuance to gain a lot of clarity. And Fireteam Core should be a skill which allows you to link with other troopers of the same type.
     
  11. RolandTHTG

    RolandTHTG Still wandering through the Night

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    Yea, making Kusanagi a wildcard even while restricting wildcards in general would be a good fluff update to the faction. As an OSS player, I think their current way would be a good base for reworking fireteams and special characters.
    Their named characters that can fireteam, Trisha and Shakti, both "count as ___ for fireteam composition". Then, there are flexible fireteam options that give a variety of choices without making a free-for-all. There are several Special Haris that are 2 X + 1 Y, for various combos of units, and a couple cases of "Up to 1 Z can join any X Fireteam". I personally like the Rudras Gunbot in a Yadu Haris, to basically add a heavy infantry to the medium infantry Yadu team.
    The one wildcard in the OSS list is actually just a Samekh missilelauncher bot profile, and isn't actually commonly taken.
     
  12. helsbecter

    helsbecter Ultrademocratic subSenator, #dominion Module

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    Honestly, I think Bakunin is just fine the way it is, at the power level that it is, and other than a few arbitrary tweaks to liven things up I don't think any improvement is needed. The sectorial has clear strengths and weaknesses while still being playable in all scenarios.

    It's not like USARF where you're often barely functional for weird reasons (looting & sabotaging??) nor is it like Shasvastii where your weakness is that you don't have a shitty MI link like every other sectorial. Bakunin is a satisfying balance and should be a benchmark for N4.
     
  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Bakunin's problem isn't that it's not a strong faction. It's that it's only a strong faction when you play into very specific strengths (Grrls, Zeros and Morlocks). This means that a lot of the faction is left behind: arguably these are some of the cooler parts of Bakunin (Prowlers and Observance).

    I do agree that Grrls-based Bakunin lists is a good point to balance against though. In modern infinity they're pretty much on the curve.
     
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  14. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I have to dissagree here. Nomad infowar is not represented at all, only our cyberwar (infowar is something older than informatics and hacking and in the game has a wider representation). TO, impersonation, ways to detect and deffend against them are also examples of tools for infowar (even in the lore), but we are limited in everything that is not "hacking" for infowar (limited, not negated). Yes, we got biometric visor and sensors but, are they enought to justify the "tunguska will be the infowar sectorial" from B time ago? I don't think so. Or TJC has the "most secure bank of the sphere with lots of money to buy anything", but on the other side, we keep beign limited in hierarchy tools because nomads "are not organized", and that "lot of money" cannot buy almost anything of hi tech to protect that bank.
     
  15. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Having enough money to buy anything being represented as having the most advanced things in the game available to one sectorial would have trashed the game. Both Tunguska and Bakunin look rich af as a corregidor player.
     
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  16. Modock

    Modock Well-Known Member

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    And yet there are sectorials with all the high tech available. Shasvastii for example. MSV2, smoke, white noise, Tag TO, TO infiltrators,
    Impersonators,camo minelayers, albedo, fatality lv2, camo chain of command, camo lieutenant, counterintelligence...you name it, Shasvastii has it all.

    Maybe Tunguska and Bakunin look richer but currently Corregidor is the strongest well for sure most flexible of nomads.
     
    #76 Modock, Feb 27, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
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  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    While I agree. I don't think you need to add more tools to Nomads. It's not about simply having the tools, it's about practical access. Take ODD and TO, Nomads have access to it but practically it's rare. Or MSV1: we have two different units with MSV1 but in Vanilla you're more likely to see MSV2.

    This largely still hits the fact that our MI and REMs suffer under the current pricing structure: a lot of our more high-tech options are gated behind these units.

    Re: being 'not organised'. I'd like to see Free Agent become a lot more prevalent in Nomads. Sure we don't get 'command' based skills, but Free Agent reflects Nomads ability to self organise on the fly. Troops like Carlota, Prowlers and maybe even Custodiers could all benefit. Depending on what they do with AD:5 maybe Hellcats as well.
     
    #77 inane.imp, Feb 27, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
  18. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    The things I most hope to see for a faction are methods of getting an overall feeling for how they behave. I think that's where a lot of miscommunication happens, that's the source of me not liking Kriza HMG and Grrls link, not so much balance. I also would not like to see CoC and minimum if any NCO (possibly a unique tunguska character profile). On the other hand something like a lot of Free Agent would be a fantastic way of building on the Nomad character.

    Another example is the people considering how the split skills for camo will affect the Haqq infiltrators. They have some weird ones that could make more sense with some of those newly split skills changed. I'm curious to see if Bandits will get mixed up to be more focused in to their role and unique background. Lots of hope for changes with the spirit of making these units and by extension their factions demonstrate their fluff thru gameplay instead of exposition.
     
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  19. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Well, "the most secure bank in the sphere" migh be some kind of propaganda of own, but in several parts of the lore is stated that nomad tech can get to pano/yujing levels, just maybe not in the same quantity...and CB represents it just with "more arm" in remotes or remote presence in HI? Ariadna gets more arm just putting more plates over a dude, so that can hardly be "hi tech".

    For example, getting some VM2 in grenzers in TJC could be a way to represent their access to that, ODD could have been limited too, but not so much as to be in only 2 characters and not in the spec ops when other have access to it. ODC was deleted and we had to wait 1 entire edition for our hitting units to be addressed for it (and only a part of it).
     
  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It's not actually just 'more ARM' it's 'increased mobility, utility/Senors and more ARM'.

    The fact that Cover is so important does limit the utility of that mobility though.

    The fact that Minesweepers are inefficient does limit the utility of that particular piece of equipment.

    The fact that 360 visors are expensive and X-Visors on Feurbachs are inefficient does limit that utility of those extra sensors.

    Our REMs have all the tools to be really freaking cool. It's just the associated mechanics let them down when compared with straightforward ODD or MSV+Smoke.

    Tl:Dr fix the tools we have, don't bandaid on new ones.
     
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