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New FAQ (11/4/2019)

Discussion in 'News' started by Ayadan, Apr 11, 2019.

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  1. FatherKnowsBest

    FatherKnowsBest Red Knight of Curmudgeon

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    I absolutely see your point. I doubt Infinity would go full-Hex any time soon (outside of whatever the hell that Kickstarter (didn't they claim they would never go that route?) is.

    But the way some people choose to play Infinity already has all grittiness taken out, or at least in how they describe their game play on these forums.
     
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  2. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    I don’t think Infinity as it stands would be very well suited to a grid. Its very significant level of terrain interaction is pretty incompatible with any grid, hexes or otherwise.
     
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  3. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Maybe tabletop gaming hasn't gotten to the level of quality you'd be happy with when it comes to hex grids. I have every intention of making a high quality table that just might change your mind in the future. It's a really big project and I haven't been able to commit the time or money just yet. But that doesn't stop me brainstorming.

    I want to play on a touch/regular PC screen table. (Custom tables are rather expensive) https://ideum.com/products/touch-ta...eAFJYSQmEHVyWfJgAU45R9a8azCKVYThoCjl8QAvD_BwE
    It might even have a partially translucent mat to give the table some texture. Players would see no grid lines at all. An app will track the troopers position, and players can cycle through movement and weapon ranges. The hexes available will light up.

    Eventually I'd like to have the program provide all relevant data and handle all the dice calculations as well. I want to significantly clean up the game experience. I find tape measuring to be nothing more than a necessary evil for all the reasons others have already mentioned. I think Infinity is perfect for this project because there is still plenty of moves to evaluate and decisions to be made by both players. This is where i see tabletop gaming heading in the future. Obviously not everyone will have access to that kind of table. They'd have to make due with grids on mats and do the math themselves.

    I see the core experience staying the same. Painting minis, building terrain, and face to face games. It also opens up the possibility for players to play online if they choose. The aesthetic fits a sci-fi futuristic game and would look great at official tournaments. I think melding the best of both tabletop and PC gaming sounds fantastic!
     
  4. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    That's probably because tables need to be designed with a hex grid in mind from the beginning. Trying to convert an old table and terrain into a grid is always going to be difficult or next to impossible. The rules should also be written with hexes in mind.

    I think there's plenty of ways to handle varying height levels in a hex format. Super jumping and climbing plus as well.
     
  5. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Well that would seem to be in agreement with Toad as he specifically stated "Infinity as it stands"
     
  6. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    His opinion on how things currently stand doesn't provide any insight on his opinion on how well it could work if done right. Which is what I've commented on.
     
  7. LankyOgreBP

    LankyOgreBP Well-Known Member

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    In addition to the difficulty of measuring or counting hexes at long ranges and the use of existing terrain, both of my other critiques of hexes are terrain interaction dependent.
    First, putting hexes on top of terrain to cover the entire map would be cumbersome and eliminate most ability for scratchbuilt terrain. If I had to try to print or drawn hexes on every piece of terrain I made, I would not have a table. To piggy back on the previous statement as well, requiring terrain to line up with hexes would be aesthetically displeasing.
    Secondly, trying to manipulate models across hexes would create a lot of wonky situations. Either terrain counts as the whole hex, in which case you have models gaining cover that aren't actually touching or blocked by terrain. Or terrain is only a partial hex, in which case a model can't actually occupy the hex touching a building.
    Finally, close combat, while not a major component of Infinity, would require a lot of adjustment. Currently, you can place a set number of models in base-to-base, and terrain may limit that a bit. With a hex, you eliminate half of the engaging hexes just by getting close to terrain.
    Just my thoughts, I played a bit of Band of Brothers and Mechwarriors, but not a lot of other hex games.
     
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  8. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    @Ginrei wha you describe (hybrid digital battlefield, app working the under the hood for the game resolution) has so far tried three times with predictably bad results.
     
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  9. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    There already is a wargame with a grid. It's called deadzone. Pretty nice game.
     
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  10. Lothlanathorian

    Lothlanathorian Not a custom title

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    You sounded like you were being an ass, I called it as I saw it. That, however, was me assigning tone where you hadn't intended any. You managed to clarify that this wasn't your intent, so it's on me for having assumed you were intending it that way and responding the way that I did, so my bad. If you want to see me get a virtual wrist slap because I hurt your feelings, then oh, noes, so scary.

    As for your opinion of what the conversation being had was, it read to me less like a discussion of what shade of blue one would prefer and more, "I think we should repaint the room blue" to my "I'd rather leave the room the color it is." No one was discussing what shade of blue, they were giving you reasons for not wanting blue. And it was more like, "I think we should turn this bedroom into a kitchen." "Well, we already have a kitchen, I like my bedrooms to be bedrooms." "Well, why do you hate kitchens?"

    Or, at least, that's how the conversation seemed to be unfolding to me. As stated, there are a myriad of reasons why switching the entirety of the game to a hex based tabletop wouldn't be a great idea and many others are articulating it better than I would and, again, I'll happily contribute more than just personal opinion in a full thread on the topic.

    To remain on-topic to the thread itself, nothing in the FAQ stands out to me this time around as non-sensical. In a game where things have to be abstracted to a degree, things here aren't looking bad at all.
     
  11. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    I think that wargames on hexgrids seem like they could work. I've played plenty of cover-based tactical games on the computer using grids of some sort and they also work. (XCOM is a common example when I'm explaining Infinity to new players).

    I still feel like a lot of the interactivity of Infinity would be lost. In order to have terrain that worked properly, it would have to all be custom-designed for the board, have the grid imprinted on top, etc. At least in the short term this would result in a lot less variability between boards and would be a significant expense for players. I'm also not convinced that it would be a fundamentally better gameplay experience. Different, yes, but I'm not sure how well it would provide the things that I'm currently getting out of Infinity.
     
  12. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    Since I brought it up earlier, the game we're planning on playing on a grid is 40K. Terrain still matters, but it's a lot less directly interactive. I guess the way I see it, a game like 40K or Warmachine has terrain. But Infinity is in many ways about terrain. It can matter more to my plans than the composition of my opponent's army.
     
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  13. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Battletech and Heavy Gear are my two main hex-grid games. I have played others, will play others, but those are the two closest to Infinity.

    And neither one really gets into urban combat where you are inside the buildings like Infinity does. A hex-grid just doesn't do 'inside the buildings' very well, in my experience.
     
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  14. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I do not know what three times you're referring to but I'd guess it's the execution that failed rather than the idea. Your attitude that it predictably failed is what I find most troublesome. It's like you don't believe a melding of these styles can exist.

    Everyone seems rather skeptical about hex grids working for Infinity. Using examples from other wargames doesn't really do the idea justice. It's like discounting the idea someone could expertly paint a mini because all you've ever seen are poorly painted ones.

    I really feel for people that had truly unique or wild ideas. I can't even fathom what the Wright brothers went through. While we're just talking about wargaming here. It always surprises me how so many of you can be this skeptical about such a simple idea.

     
  15. chromedog

    chromedog Less than significant minion

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    While history is a bad way of predicting the future, it doesn't bode well based on their lack of performance or staying power.
     
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  16. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    It would be lovely if someone pulled it off, but as @chromedog noted, many are coming from a place of seeing hex based games fail, at times spectacularly, which makes doubts about them understandable.
     
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  17. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Well I predicted in ex illis and in Gholem Arcana (forget the name of the third) that they would fail because essentially they were an app game with miniatures and they failed because they were an app game with miniatures, I have not seen any game design suggestion so far for a hybrid miniatures system governed by an interactive application that does all the rolls ectr or accepts input from the rolls from the player that does not feel like a turn based wargame app that can be played without the models ectr. and this is why most people did not buy it or ended up playing it as a mobile game app only.

    If there is a way to mix a AI/ AP assisted gameplay in the system without either making the APP a bookkeeping application like Infinity Army and not a game that can simply be played on the APP without any physical presence, I have not seen it and have not thought it.

    The fact remains it has been attempted 3 times with relatively big budgets behind it and now we see FFG do the same with their dungeon crawlers and the question is the same, why bother with the physical product?
     
  18. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    Urban fighting on a grid, Deadzone by mantic (not a bad game, rules are free online, and you can play with Infinity models. Actually, Infinity models are probably much better even for this game than Mantic models) :

    [​IMG]


    An for massive battle in the open using a grid, you got Dust tactics (never played this one) :

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. Pen-dragon

    Pen-dragon Deva

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    Ugh, that sounds terrible to me, no thank you. Also, I have a tight budget, I don't have $30,000 to blow on a gimmick for my tabletop gaming. (A gimmick that I would find distracting, and annoying)

    How would that even work? Infinity is very terrain dependent, and all that terrain is going to cover up the touch table. My terrain generally covers 50-75% of the table.

    If you wanted to go the high-tech route, a ceiling mounted projector that dropped overlays on top of your table and terrain would probably work better, but still seems like the expense and hassle would far outweigh any benefits.

    As to hexes, I love them. A good game can be designed with hexes, but it really needs to be designed from the ground up. I personally don't think Infinity would translate to hexes very well.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I have a boardgame set of Dust Tactics. I haven't seen anyone actually reference it anywhere, but it's legit. Picked it up when I worked in a computer store (that branched out into the untapped gold mine that is nerd culture). It is very, very, brutal. The grid rules are simple (cover is determined by drawing straight lines from the centre of grid to centre or target grid), the ranges aren't too many grids so that counting them gets annoying, and it's also the only boardgame I've picked up where the time estimate has anti-lied. 1 to 2 hours games? More like 20 minutes of absolute carnage on second outing.

    If one trooper has 3 chances of 5+ to kill an opposing trooper, it quickly comes down to who has the guts to make the first move.

    I think it's possible to adapt Infinity armies and models to the rule set to mimic more large scale assaults, though I'm not sure about the difference between the Dust Tactics you have posted a picture of and the Dust Tactics that's in my book shelf, because that looks like a fairly small play area/scenario.
    The Infinity dungeon crawl probably won't go in this direction (in terms of number of miniatures) but I don't think it'd be a bad general idea with grids for a crawl.
     
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