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N4 wishlisting

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Zewrath, Aug 3, 2019.

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  1. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Even after writing what I did above, I think crits are functioning just fine in CC. If anything, CC should be made even more deadly than it is right now. The fact that Speculos, Fidays and Oniwabans almost always rely on their guns more than their CC abilities that they start close enough to use and pay a fortune for says a lot about how CC is working.
     
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  2. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    If nothing else, the A! Dice are actually much more consistent. I’ve seen countless people feel like Infinity is too random, mostly because of the crit mechanic, but also because of how much it can swing with the d20.
    I’m fine with the current system but I’m totally open for the usage of A!
     
  3. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
    Warcor

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    I'm looking forward to what I'd expect would be a general tidy up and polish of N3.

    Skills like dual wield are cool and all, but could be easily replaced on a domaru by AP+DA CCw, by all means prune that.

    I wouldn't want to see the actual CC skills pruned, MA and protheon do different things and feel different, one is being a dualist, the other is a murderer, functionally against a line trooper they look the same, but when faced with each other dualist MA is usually the winner. They should be compiled into the same reference or section but kept distinctly separate, they're also probably the coolest skills and interactions in the game. I enjoy this game because it has depth, nuance and interactions and I wouldn't want to see any of that lost for expediency.

    I've elsewhere made the point about nested skills, look at an anathematic and write it's nested skills out and what they do, it's horrific, a paragraph, the bundles make the game more playable an generally easier to remember IMO, rules like morat also feel more fun.

    The polish I assume would be smoothing out the various daft micro interactions and corner cases roll the FAQs into the actual text of the rules or buffing out the possiblity for the corner cases to occur entirely.

    A general points formula rebalance would be good also a more explicit walkthrough of order expenditure and sequence for new players would be helpful:

    Basic primer for infinity:
    • Spend order.
    • declare first short skill or long skill.
      • move if it is a movement skill
    • Opponent must declare AROs with any models able to do so, any missed or undeclared are lost.
      • Models may declare delay if the reaction is in response to a model in a marker state
      • Models with sixth sense, which has the active model in active range of sixth sense, may defer declaring it's ARO until the active model has declared both it's skills
    • Declare second short skill
      • Move if it's a movement skill.
    • Opponent declares AROs
      • These will only be if:
        • The active model has continued moving prompting AROs from new models.
        • The active model has revealed from a marker state as part of it's declaration, in which case models which declared delay may now declare another ARO skill.
        • The reactive model used 6th sense to defer its ARO declaration
    • Resolve action skills (shoot, dodge, activate console)
      • Skill tests are resolved by rolling under a stat after applicable modifiers have been applied, the higher the successful roll the better it is cancelling any opposed rolls of the same or less. If the stat after modifiers is rolled it's a critical "blackjack" and cancels every roll it opposes which is not also a critical and resolves it's critical effect. rolls higher than modified stat are "bust" and fail.
      • All effects are simultaneous at the end of the order.
    • Return to start until you have no more orders.
    Basic tips:
    • Pay attention to the mission
    • If in doubt use gun on man.
    • AROs are to prolong your own survival or to slow your opponent down, anything past that is a bonus.
     
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  4. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    How would it form the basis for those troopers with Servant or Synch that don't (and background-wise shouldn't) have Remote Presence?
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Tbh, Synchronized and Servant should probably not be "Ghost" skills at all.
     
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  6. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    It depends how much you think the background should affect the rules. Ghost covers kinds of intelligence other than one standard Human or Human-equivalent brain in one body. Background-wise, Synch and Servant definitely fall under the in-universe term, with a minor exception for Synched Civilians.
     
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  7. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Please, stick to D20.

    They provide a lot of granularity, and calculating hits and misses involve just a few dice and a little of basic math. I don't want to throw buckets of dice or having to compare special symbols in special dices (that have to be bought sepparatedly at a special price).
     
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  8. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I'll correct a bit. The Ghost skill should contain the general rules that apply to all Ghost units.

    Ghost Servant, Remote Presence, Sync, and Marionette (and honestly maybe even Antipode) should all provide an extension of those rules. But the G:Remote Presence rule should be the base rule (i.e., become the rule called Ghost) since the general conditions of G:Rem Presence can pretty much apply to the other three states listed without making a big difference in the game currently (not having a cube, they should probably mostly get V:Courage with a few exceptions, 2 levels of unconscious if they have STR, and the engineer bonus for having 2 levels of unconscious). There's no real reason an Auxbot shouldn't get courage, for example, and Antipodes function similarly to Marionette in a number of ways.
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    As long as there are units that don't conform to those in-verse specifications but makes use of those rules, the Synchronized skill should not be a Ghost skill to help with remembering those implicit nested skills. Provided Tohaa stays in some form, we'll probably keep having well trained/brainwashed creatures that absolutely don't conform to what a Ghost implies.
    Then a Synched remote will of course also have a Ghost skill because it is a Ghost: Remote Presence, so we're still going to have that tie-in with the in-verse specifications of a Ghost.
     
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  10. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    Thank you, that makes a lot more sense than your previous post. I suspect you'd made a few logical steps that didn't make it into the actual post.

    Bu brainwashed creatures that can't act on their own is one of the things that a Ghost implies. I'm confused. :-(
     
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I didn't realize Antipodes were technically Ghost. But... think of it from the perspective of someone who doesn't read the fluff, but plays the game. Particularly someone who needs to read the rules on a timer.

    Is it really all that great to have a rule that constantly has to include exceptions? It has two unconscious levels, except when it doesn't or when it's a synched civilian or....

    No, just make a rule that can be concise and cut down on unnecessary exceptions. Having select units have the Ghost: Remote Presence rule is plenty tie in enough
     
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  12. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I understand this, almost all my games have printed rules and I do like all my books, even if I know I won't open some of them like ever. However I rather this game working well than a pretty but outdated rulebook in a month. A middle point is creating the living rulebook with a decently looking print option so people who like printed rules could still have these.

    I like this idea, not strictly about Ghost but about a hierarchical system of rules to avoid excesive verbose. Creating a few "high level" abilities that cover the general rules and then rules nuancing them for particular cases:

    For example, take a look at the cancelation clauses of some of the "marker states":
    • A trooper's TO Camouflaged state is canceled, and its Marker replaced by its model, whenever:
      • The TO Camouflaged trooper declares a Skill other than Cautious Movement or a Short Movement Skill that does not require a Roll (except Alert).
      • Following the previous, the TO Camouflaged trooper declares a Surprise Attack or a Surprise Shot.
      • The TO Camouflaged trooper enters base to base contact with a model.
      • The TO Camouflaged trooper is Discovered.
      • The TO Camouflaged trooper receives a successful hit that forces him to make an ARM/BTS Roll, or a Critical hit, without previous Discovery (by means of an Intuitive Attack, a Template Weapon whose target was a nearby model, etc.).
      • The TO Camouflaged trooper becomes Impetuous (due to the Frenzy Characteristic or any other effect) or enters Retreat! state In either case, the trooper's CH Level is downgraded to CH: Mimetism. The trooper recovers his original CH Level when the Retreat! situation is canceled. However, the trooper does not revert to the TO Camouflaged state. To regain the TO Camouflaged state, the trooper must follow the Activation rules.
    • Whenever the TO Camouflaged state is canceled, replace the TO Camouflage Marker (TO CAMO) with the trooper's model, facing whatever direction the owning player chooses.
    • When you replace one of your Markers with a model, you are required to share all Open Information relative to that trooper.
    • The cancellation of the TO Camouflaged state is applied to the whole declared Order. So, if a Camouflaged trooper declares a Move + BS Attack Order, he will be considered discovered all along his Movement, even if the BS Attack would be performed at the end of that Movement.
    • A trooper's Camouflaged state is canceled, and its Marker replaced by its model, whenever:
      • The Camouflaged trooper declares a Skill other than Cautious Movement or a Short Movement Skill that does not require a Roll (except Alert).
      • Following the previous, the Camouflaged trooper declares a Surprise Attack or a Surprise Shot.
      • The Camouflaged trooper enters base to base contact with a model.
      • The Camouflaged trooper is successfully Discovered.
      • The Camouflaged trooper receives a successful hit that forces him to make an ARM/BTS Roll, or a Critical hit, without previous Discovery (by means of an Intuitive Attack, a Template Weapon whose target was a nearby model, etc.)
      • The Camouflaged trooper becomes Impetuous (due to the Frenzy Characteristic or any other effect) or enters Retreat! state In either case, the trooper's CH Level is downgraded to CH: Mimetism. The trooper recovers his original CH Level when the Retreat! situation is canceled. However, the trooper does not revert to the Camouflaged state. To regain the Camouflaged state, the trooper must follow the Activation rules.
    • Whenever the Camouflaged state is canceled, replace the Camouflage Marker (CAMO) with the trooper's model, facing whatever direction the owning player chooses.
    • When you replace one of your Markers with a model, you are required to share all Open Information relative to that trooper.
    • The cancellation of Camouflaged state is applied to the whole declared Order. So, if a Camouflaged trooper declares a Move + BS Attack Order, he will be considered discovered all along his Movement, even if the BS Attack would be performed at the end of that Movement.
    A trooper's Impersonation-1 state is canceled whenever:
    • The impersonator declares a Skill other than Cautious Movement or a Short Movement Skill that does not require a Roll (except Alert). In that case, replace the Impersonation-1 Marker (IMP-1) with the user's figure.
    • The impersonator declares a Surprise Attack or a Surprise Shot.
    • The impersonator enters base to base contact with a trooper. In that case, replace the Impersonation-1 Marker (IMP-1) with the user's figure.
    • The impersonator is Discovered. In that case, the impersonator enters the Impersonation-2 state. To represent this, replace the Impersonation-1 Marker with an Impersonation-2 Marker (IMP-2).
    • The impersonator becomes Impetuous (due to the Frenzy Characteristic or any other effect) or enters Retreat! state. In either case, the trooper loses his ability to use the Impersonation Special Skill. The trooper recovers his ability to use the Special Skill when the Retreat! situation is canceled. However, the trooper does not revert to the Impersonation-1 state. To regain the Impersonation-1 state, he must follow the Activation rules.
    • Whenever you replace an Impersonation Marker with the trooper's figure, place the model facing a direction of your choice.
    • When you place a figure on the battlefield, you are required to share all Open Information relative to that trooper.
    • The cancellation of Impersonation-1 state is applied to the whole declared Order. So, if a Impersonated trooper declares a Move + BS Attack Order, he will be considered discovered all along his Movement, even if the BS Attack would be performed at the end of that Movement.
    An exception to this rule is made when Holoprojector L2 bearer fails an Initial Coherency Check, then the player must remove all the holographic decoys immediately, before measuring movement, if he has declared any.
    • The Holoecho state of a holographic decoy is canceled, whenever:
      • It is successfully Discovered.
      • It enters base to base contact with a model.
      • It receives a successful hit that forces him to make an ARM/BTS Roll, or a Critical hit.
      • It breaks Coherency with the other Holoechoes.
      • The real Holoprojector L2 bearer's Holoecho state is cancelled for any reason.
    • Anytime a holographic decoy cancels its Holoecho state the player must remove its Holoecho from the table at the end of the Order that happened.
    • An exception to this rule is made when the Holoecho fails a Coherency Check, then the player must remove the Holoecho immediately, before measuring movement, if he has declared any.
    • The cancellation of the Holoecho state is applied to the whole declared Order. So, if a trooper in the Holoecho state declares a Move + BS Attack Order, he will be considered discovered all along his Movement, even if the BS Attack would be performed at the end of that Movement.
    They are all very very simmilar, those could all be condensed in 1 rules of "how marker states behave", and then just add the rules for the state that make them different to that general behaviour.

    Simmilarily other part of the rules would benefice a lot from a rearrange of rules (indicating the hierarchy), for example:
    Move cover both the ability and the default way to move, that's bad imo. Just put all the general movement rules in an "higher level" and then just invoke move to use those general movement rules, not the other way around.
    Climb cover both the ability and how models behave when in a vertical surface. The following rules should be in a general movement rules part so they could also be applied without any dobut to models in stairs.
    And also be very careful when invoking other rules to avoid creating holes or doubts, for example minelayer
    To deploy your troops on the table, follow these rules:
    • The base of each troop must be entirely within the Deployment Zone.
    • Troops cannot be deployed in base to base contact with enemy troops, neutral troops, Markers or Objectives, regardless of their Special Skills.
    • If, at the beginning of his first Player Turn the player's Lieutenant has been not deployed by virtue of some Special Skill, such as Airborne Deployment, that player begins his first Player Turn in a situation of Loss of Lieutenant (see Loss of Lieutenant.
    • When a troop deploys, its owner can choose to deploy it Prone. To do so, simply place a Prone Marker (PRONE) beside the troop.
    • Unless otherwise agreed upon, troops cannot deploy in a location without enough space to fit their entire base.

    I'm really looking forward a more curated new iteration of the rules! I believe in you guys! :D
     
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  13. Alfy

    Alfy Well-Known Member

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    As a newcomer, I'm not going to comment on the rules I wished changed. I will however say I really wished the formatting and presentation of the rules was improved. As they stand, they're not horrible (for one thing, if you do read entirely through a section, you usually get how things work), but there are many issues that hinder rather than help:

    • Choosing visual examples that make sense and adding text underneath so you know what you are looking at (typical example would be visual on page 36, I don't know what this represents: is the top model inside a building or on top of a building? If he's on top, couldn't he get hit depending on the height of the building?).
    • Having important rules where they belong, according to format (so in the grey box for skills, for example), rather than below, and even sometimes worst, hiding in examples.
    • Not introducing difficult/irrelevant rules early on. Two examples: twin weapons gets unnecessarily detailed early in BS; and seriously, mentioning fireteams here and there just confuses things. Generally speaking, you should never have an example using a concept that hasn't been fully introduced yet, although I admit there can be some circular cases.
    • Being consistent. Some of this is smaller things (like game terms being italicised and then not in the same paragraph, or States being in the appendix when Skills, Ammo and Weapons have main sections - and yes, I realise many states are already there under their respective skills, which is both good and bad, frankly), some of it is more annoying (what's in the skills grey boxes and what's left as additional text seems to vary quite a bit).
    • Removing nested skills. This is silly: if a skill gives you other skills, write them on the profile, period.
    A friend who started with N1 tells me this is way better than what he started with. I have also read praise that N3 rules are "grammatically correct". Neither are ringing endorsements, really.
     
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  14. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    That's my bad, I wrote that as I was running out the door half conscious this morning. It's an idea I've had for a while about how the rules could be structured more clearly and at least more cohesively if read from end to end, and the biggest thing is that some skills that don't feel logically connected are grouped together, and other times skills that feel like they're logically connected aren't grouped in any way at all.
     
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  15. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    My only wishes:

    - Streamline the system. Cut down on redundancy / rules that work almost exactly as each other. This is one of the biggest problems when trying to bring more people to the game.
    - Review the unit formula cost. It wasn't terrible when most profiles were unoptmized, but now that we have more and more optimized profiles, the disbalances on the formula is really showing its head.
    -
    • Removing nested skills. This is silly: if a skill gives you other skills, write them on the profile, period.
    Direclty quoting the last one because that *really* causes some issues.
     
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  16. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Oh, one more thing, N4 should do away with rules tied to unit type (LI, MI, HI, SK, TAG, REM, WB). The -6 to dodge for TAGs and -3 for REMs should all be made into their own rules, remembering weird exceptions that apply to unit classifications instead of skills is cumbersome.
     
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  17. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

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    This is a good idea. I'd add that when ITS season adds some rules, it'd be great to have them displayed in Army, but that's not a request restricted to N4
     
  18. Freki

    Freki Active Member

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    One odd idea I just had, CB getting rid of Vanilla, instead sectorials can have a third of "faction mercs"
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I *generally* think these are good abbreviations, but there is no distinction between LI, SK, and WB other than what could be adequately explained by Veteran, Elite, etc.
    I would instead like it if CB tied their mission objectives to the SK, WB, HI, etc category exclusively instead of Veteran, Elite, etc (looking at you, Hunting Party and Abduction)

    On the other hand... Zhencha and Daofei belongs in the Skirmisher category just as much as HI category and arguably Tanko and possibly even Domaru belong in the Warband category as well... hmm...
     
  20. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    This!!!

    Dear lord, this.
     
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