So after some listbuilding in a vacuum, dead might be overblown, but disappointed hasn't really vanished. It's nice to see that we can hit 14-15 orders with a sphinx and hit 15 quality orders with an Overdron HRMC. It still feels like we lost more than we gained by a large margin. Is N4 complete or are there stated plans to overhaul factions and tweak profiles? I heard a rumor about semi regular updates, so bringing the Rodoks down in points might make them more palatable. I think TAGs are mandatory for Onyx now. Not a huge issue for me as I will always like big stompy robots at heart, and we still get the second best in the game. Our weaker TAGs are actually pretty competitive now. But I still don't see a good way to use Umbras effectively so it really seems like LT is still the obvious nexus cowering on the roof. Weaknesses: Expensive Troops Fragile Troops Expensive Fragile Troops Terrible LTs No Smoke No Warbands No cheap midfield SWC Hungry SWC Tax Strengths: TAGs? Plasma? I am drawing a blank her on strengths really. It feels like an early N3 sectorial where you get a narrow role buffed by fireteams. Now we are just as narrow and our fireteams actually got nerfed-- SWC tax on EVO, Rodoks get points increase. N4 has every other sectorial doing everything, gets amazing wildcard everything, has solid fireteams and a lot more options. It seems like a massive disconnect more than anything else-- everyone else got modernized, we get left in the past. What does Onyx do that isn't done better by Shas or Vanilla now? When I play USARF or CJC I have very clear answers to that, with Onyx I don't see it.
I sorry, but i don't bite it... Legates are a good unit but Samaritans? meh, Samaritans need to be deployed in the DZ, Legates have FD +8". Legates have mimetism(-3), Samaritans don't. Legates have NCO, Samaritans don't. Legates with CC22, MA4, FD +8 and DA CCW with dam16 seems a lot easier to reach and kill anything than Samaritans, even with the vorpal CCW (that doesn't add the MA dmg, but i can be wrong) and we can't use Protheion against STR targets, so no power-up... For now, Samaritans seems just like a huge tax for the Xeodron Haris... Oh, and now the Xeodron ( BS13, 3STR, bioimm and TA) have a K1 marksman rifle with dmg14... Why would i expend lots of orders to get the Samaritan in CC if i can just shoot things dead from afar?
@HardDisk we're going to have to disagree, as we appear to have very different experiences with the Samaritan. Also, why is your opponent being incompetent and leaving a hard target where the Xeodron can easily see it from a distance?
Note: The Discord points out that Nourikas LT can use his order to Cybermask with no roll now, so he's now NWI and marker state. That can conceivably get into killing range with 6-2, though still tricky and 47 points is a lot for a one trick pony like that when the trick is kind of meh. @ijw with 6-2 and superjump the Xeos can get a lot of good angles on the opponent, so they won't just catch the incompetent. It's hard to hide from that sort of mobility.
At least for me, Samaritans was a hit or miss unit, sometimes eating copses all around the table and being monsters with 3Ws+NWI (and avoiding shock if put on NWI) or dying on the first turn from a shock ammo hit... that shit is expensive, i don't want to lose 40+pts easily and triggering LoL...
I’ve been using Xeodrons heavily since N3 dropped, you don’t need to tell me about their manouevreability. But unless your entire table is made up of single storey buildings etc, a competent opponent is going to position their harder target so that you need to get within a foot or so to see them, in which case you may even be running into issues with the -3 range band of the Marksman Rifle, and you’re so close that the Samaritan would also be in a good position.
Dodge movement happens after all AROs have been resolved, and explicitly doesn't trigger AROs, or even Deployable Weapons! Well, they start off as expensive situational glass cannon, right up until they reach CC, at which point they become effectively tougher than most of the units you've mentioned. I'm wondering if this is a meta thing, do you not face many units in the mid-field, that the Samaritan can snack on on the way? The base profile went up 3pt for the increased MOV rate, +4 CC, and Heavy Pistols. The last two don't make them amazing in combat, but gives them a tiny bit more resilience against enemy CC specialists, and DAM14 Shock ammo if they do get a hit through. The Boarding Shotgun options then went up another point because Boarding Shotguns went up by a point. I just wish most of them hadn't lost Mines as well, but that may have been because of players like me running up to the mid-field, breaking the Fireteam to do a couple of Coordinated mine-placements, then reforming the Fireteam. In one game I managed to get 11 Mines down.
P.S. The greatest moment was probably an Interplanetario game against @Pupnik, where my Xeodron/Samaritan Haris ran into the middle of the table, jumped up on top of a building, then the Red Fury Xeodron jumped up 4" into the air and shot the obvious Prone Interventor Lieutenant in the back with a Shock crit.
I'm inspired by your praise of the Samaritan, ijw. I've been playing Shas but thinking I'm going to run something like the below for my first game of N4 instead. My main opponent plays Nomads, so I need to be ready for smoking warbands, intruders, and haxx. Ko Dali in a haris with a Samaritan and a Xeo seems like a hell of an assault team (even if there's some conflict with super-jump). In another thread someone posted about starting the Greif in supp. fire, which seems solid with a nice Unidron ARO castle backing it up.
??? The Combined army EVO is objectively the best EVO in the game. It has actual weapons, not a slow specialist like the others and a small silhuette as well as the fact that it can now go prone (and has terrain total). The EVO, before N4, was in 2/3 of all my Onyx lists and is also one of the worst things a Tohaa player can face because of its ability to break links (paired with Kerr-nau's Pitcher).
Point was that Rodoks got increased CC and Heavy Pistol now which deals DAM 14 + shock ammo in CC mode.
I mean the more I look at him the better the 37 point version becomes as a throw away gamble, no idea what you do vs camo markers, or link teams, TR bots or flame, MSV snipers, mines or chain rifles though? This guy will die to a dude with a combi on the onyx reactive turn? I'm just not seeing it man...What's the deal, always take Spitfire or Breaker, then take him in Xeo's? If not what? He can't take Cybermask right? So he sticks his neck out then you have to cover him or hide him some how in reactive turn. (Suppression) Even if he soaks a few wounds the guys dying in two rounds of concentrated shooting pretty easy. No Armour no MSV, no mimetism...He's dodging on a 15 but he fails 1-2 it's night-night. And say he does pop around the corner and smoke a dude using the dodge trick, what then happens in his next turn? Surely the dudes going to get riddled with bullets in Aro from the rest of the guys force. I know we're down to 15 orders but we're still facing all of the above? I play on dense boards against dudes that know my Nexus specialist is my Lt.
Super-Jump generally means the Samaritan is Prone on a rooftop in Suppressive Fire in the reactive turn because your Fireteam: Core has cleared away people who could see over the rooftops, or tucked into a corner where the approaches are visible to your other Troopers, ideally where attackers can’t get LoF without getting within the 4” danger zone for Dodging into combat. ALL attacking pieces need to retreat or hide in the reactive turn, there’s nothing special about the Umbra from that point of view. Leave any unit out on a limb unsupported and you’re going to lose it, even a TAG You can even use this to your advantage, by making the Samaritan appear to be a tempting target and leading potential attackers into the path of a Noctifer ML. I’ve done this with double Noctifers before now, which was a horrible surprise for my opponent when he thought he’d dealt with ‘the’ Noctifer ML. Also, why would you Dodge round the corner to CC someone that’s visible to the rest of the opposing army, unless it’s a high priority target like a Lieutenant or a player’s last Specialist or something like that? You pick targets with up to 1-2 other Troopers with LoF, because in that case you’re probably gaining Wounds as fast as you lose them to AROs. I’m not sure why you’re suggesting doing stuff with the Samaritan that would be risky for any unit, and then complaining that it would be a problem for the Samaritan?
Please note that I’m not saying Samaritan are the be-all-and-end-all, and I’m definitely not saying that everyone should be using them, but at the same time they’re a hard to use but extremely powerful unit if you take the time to experiment with them.
At least in my other army, Haqqislam, everyone and their mother who had NWI got Shock Immunity in the N4 update. That the Umbras didn't is, by far, my greatest disappointment with N4. I really can't see the reasoning behind it. It's all it would take to make them good.
Dodge movement can't generate an ARO because it happens in the results section of the order. You don't even declare where you're going with the Dodge until after you've rolled. The Infinity rules may be crazy at times, but they don't do a recursive order sequence. :)
