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N4/C1 Token Design Questions

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Lawson, Oct 1, 2020.

  1. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I can make these. Even though things are technically scale-able I prefer the look of all tokens having the same text size, etc. relative to one another, so I prefer to make natively larger tokens rather than force people to a blow-up after the fact.

    I really like the efficiency of double-sided tokens in general so I'd like to figure out an elegant way to make this work. I would consider a slight re-design of the Unloaded token potentially as well... it bothers me that official artwork depicts a cartridge even though normal bullet-shooting guns don't run out ammo and I almost changed it when I was initially putting the new version of the token together.
     
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  2. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    You could go with rockets for panzerfausts and flammenspeares. Doesn't work for pitchers, but it's no worse than the official "unloaded" marker I guess.

    Maybe two rockets, and on one side one of them is crossed out, and on the other side they're both crossed out?

    ^This is probably why I'm not a graphic designer...
     
  3. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    So here are some thoughts and a question re: printable versions of the token sheet.

    Firstly, CB's PDF token sheet looks like it is designed to print on A4 paper. While I believe this is a good international standard, the most common US paper size (damn our imperial measurement system) is 8.5x11", which means their sheets would be cut off on a standard home printer in the US unless you stock A4 or go to a print service. For this reason, I plan to do my basic arrangement of tokens with a 7.5x10" (e.g. half inch border on all sides to accommodate printers without full bleed on 8.5x11) print area to make them compatible with the largest possible combination of printing setups, amateur and professional.

    Second, no sheet design will be ideal for everyone (which is why I'd be very pleased to pass the assets to @toadchild as necessary and they can be incorporated into the custom designer). However, I'd like to put together a 'generic' pdf as soon as possible with all the tokens on it that roughly matches the N4 token sheet in terms of contents. At the risk of opening up a can of worms, I'd be curious to know if (aside from some of the more esoteric and army-specific requests for large format Camo and IMP markers) the N4 sheet has a 'good' arrangement of tokens, or if we'd like to change the quantities of the basic tokens. Obviously people could print out multiple sheets if they need more of something... just trying to think of the most convenient arrangement to start with.

    For example, my C1 Kaldstrom set came with double-sided Regular Order/Unconscious tokens. I find it incredibly helpful if figures go unconscious that I can take an order token and place it next to the Unconscious figure on its Unconscious side... and do two things at once by automatically reducing my order pool at the same time I mark the figure. I realize this doesn't work perfectly for everything (Irregulars for example) but in general I like the efficiency of double-sided tokens so-long as what's on each side makes logical sense when you're trying to find a token (e.g. IMM-A on one side and IMM-B on the other, double-sided Albedo, Wound and 2x Wound, etc.) So, for me personally, I would want to make sure there are as many Unconscious tokens on the sheet as there are Regular Orders (the N4 sheet currently has 10 Regular Orders and only 5 Unconscious). Are there any other odd choices of not enough (or too many) of a particular token type on the official N4 sheet? (linked again here: https://assets.infinitythegame.net/downloads/tokens/all/v1.0/tokens.pdf)
     
    #43 Lawson, Oct 8, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
  4. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    :-D Yeah, that's kept me from worrying TOO much about any of my aesthetic choices. There are also some things inherent to the rules that I would change if I could to make things easier (don't even get me started on why some states are numbered, 1,2 - while others are A,B - it annoys me to no end).

    I think with things like mines, repeaters, and etc. you have the advantage of a physical token that you put out on the table, so its easy to keep track of those things if you have as many tokens as you have quantity of a given disposable - it's just that handful of weapons that you'd want some way of keeping track of their ammo, so I think it's acceptable to make a 'Loaded' token that depicts rockets or something else along those lines.
     
  5. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    @QueensGambit

    How about this:
    Screen Shot 2020-10-08 at 11.08.32 AM.png

    There will never be a perfect solution unless we can come up with a 3-sided token but let's say you have these double-sided in a couple of different combinations (2 and 1, 1 and 0) - that way you could use two tokens to keep track of your 3x disposables ([3] start with 2x and 1x token, [2] 2x flips to 1x, [1] discard 1x, [0] second 1x flips to unloaded) or the same set of 2 tokens to keep track of your 2x disposables ([2] start with the 2x token on the 1x side and the other 1x token, [1] discard 1x, [0] flip 1x to unloaded)
     
  6. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I would actually recommend that it be 3 2 1 0. That way you could make 2 2-sided markers if you wanted (a 3 and 2, and a 1 and 0). It would just be fewer markers on the board to represent the same thing.
     
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  7. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    That makes sense to me, too.

    FWIW, the ones I'd be likely to use would be the 1- and 0- markers. For a fully loaded panzerfaust, I wouldn't put out a marker. So having a double-sides 1- and 0- would be ideal for me, and if there was also a double-sided 3- and 2-, so much the better.

    Those rockets look real nice.
     
  8. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    You have no idea how refreshing it is to see somebody with an actually professional approach. Thank you.

    To be honest, double sided printing and punching tokens would be a pain, especially if some of us want to print on something closer to cardboard. I'd rather spend your time on designing single side tokens which then we can glue back to back and one colored side to a see-through token piece of laser cut plastic.
     
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  9. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    What I'm proposing still only actually requires two tokens - you would just start with 2 tokens and sum their values to represent a quantity of ammunition instead of replacing them as you go.

    Screen Shot 2020-10-08 at 11.48.21 AM.png

    It just requires different sides on each of the double-sided tokens. One of them has 2 on one side and 1 on the other - the other would have 1 on one side and 0 on the other.

    Nonetheless, it's not hard for me to make a 3x value token.
     
  10. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I’m happy to coordinate some on token sheet stuff, but I’ve had a family emergency this week that is likely to further delay when I can make time to work on N4 tools.
     
  11. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    Yes of course, I have no intention to actually design the sheets in such a way that they would be printed double-sided (that would almost require professional printing to ensure a proper line-up). For myself, I've purchased 3mm acrylic disks from Litko that I'm going to glue/stick printed bits on either side of. My question was more along the lines of: are there any glaring errors/oddities in the various quantities of tokens on the official N4 sheet that I should correct for, or (aside from adding more camo and other marker-state tokens in various sizes and quantities) should I stick with the exact arrangement that CB created? My instinct is to make some minor changes to allow for easier creation of 2-sided tokens without needing to print extra copies to get enough Unconscious tokens, just as an example.
     
    #51 Lawson, Oct 8, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
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  12. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Right, but you would need 2 tokens next to a trooper to denote someone with 3. What I proposed would only need 1 token at any given time (you'd just swap the token when needed).
     
  13. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    My thought was that one would keep the tokens in their play area until the figure was unloaded, next to the unit profile - since there are no tokens for ammunition to begin with it didn't seem to me that it would be necessary to put them out on the board, but I can see only wanting one token if you plan to place it next to a figure rather than stacking.

    Screen Shot 2020-10-08 at 12.46.01 PM.png
    Color coded properly as well now
     
  14. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    It's just that there is a large possibility of multiple models with disposable weapons on the board at one time. Knowing which of my seed soldiers have already fired both their PF shots and which still have the ARO available, for example.
     
  15. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Also the tokens help your opponent too - they know it's safe to advance once the Daylami is unloaded. I assume that's why the official tokens don't have a "partially unloaded" version - the assumption is that you're keeping track of the ammo used in your own way, and then when ammo reaches 0, you put out the Unloaded token to remind your opponent that that unit isn't dangerous anymore.

    But if your opponent can also tell how many shots each unit has remaining, so much the better.
     
  16. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    Okay rather than force people to speculate on the N4 token pdf, here's a proposed print layout to try and cover all the bases. It's changed from the N4 layout partially to make it more universally printable, and partially based on my own desires for the option to do double-sided tokens. Also MORE camo tokens since everyone seems to want more of those. The X-ed out images are just because I want to keep anyone from using the non-final version before I've done a thorough QC to make sure there are no errors.

    N4_TOKENS_PROPOSED_LAYOUT_v01000.jpg

    N4_TOKENS_PROPOSED_LAYOUT_v01001.jpg

    N4_TOKENS_PROPOSED_LAYOUT_v01002.jpg

    N4_TOKENS_PROPOSED_LAYOUT_v01003.jpg

    N4_TOKENS_PROPOSED_LAYOUT_v01004.jpg

    N4_TOKENS_PROPOSED_LAYOUT_v01005.jpg

    N4_TOKENS_PROPOSED_LAYOUT_v01006.jpg
     
  17. RolandTHTG

    RolandTHTG Still wandering through the Night

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    Those are looking really slick. One suggestion, and this may be Aleph bias, but I'd swap the token numbers between Dogged and NWI.
    Since dogged dies at the end of the player turn, and especially on active feels like "use or lose" I've rarely had more than 1 in that state, while I regularly had 4+ models in NWI in N3, because I'd pull back a wounded trooper and send a different attacker forward.
     
  18. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Why do the tinbot markers say targetable?
     
  19. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I'm also a little unclear on the intention of the fireteam tokens. Fireteam Leader (for a core?) has one solid person and smaller greyed out people in the background. Haris has three icons, one of which is greyed out. Triad has three icons as well, but all are solid. Duo has two solids. Enomotarchos has four solids. What's the intended emphasis on the one greyed out member in a Haris? Should Enomotarchos have something to emphasize that it's intended to be lead by a hero?
     
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  20. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Holoecho numbering is confusing; you have the numbers 1 and 2 meaning multiple things, with each having 3 digits on it. It's not immediately clear what they each mean. The four tokens are numbered (top to bottom) 1.1.1, 1.2.2, 2.1.1, and 2.2.2.
     
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