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N4/C1 Token Design Questions

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Lawson, Oct 1, 2020.

  1. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    EDITED with the link to the latest iteration of my N4 tokens:
    LINK

    Please be aware that I have released this to the community with for review/notes - print at your own risk until it is updated to final.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I’m trying to create some updated custom tokens for myself to improve on the official N4 tokens sheet (official sheet found here for reference: https://assets.infinitythegame.net/downloads/tokens/all/v1.0/tokens.pdf) because I’ve found CB’s token design to be aesthetically a bit sloppy (formatting errors, weird aliasing and resolution issues), and also seemingly inconsistent.

    Mostly I’m planning on going with the basic design and layout elements of the existing tokens, but I want to remove a lot the gradients (and faux "airbrushed on" reflections), clean up the symbols and formatting errors and simplify the graphic design, and I have been removing inconsistencies wherever I can and trying to create tokens that are instantly legible on the table.

    For those who are curious, here's an example of the difference between the original N4 tokens and works in progress of my planned token re-design (they're not done, so don't judge me just yet):
    Comp 1 (00000).jpg
    I have a few questions based on what I’ve observed so far.

    All of the new N4/C1 tokens have a light gray border, and there is a white(ish) ring where the name text goes on most of the tokens. There are several exceptions to this, however:

    The UNCONSIOUS, POSSESSED, and DISCONNECTED TOKENS have a dark gray ring with white text. Presumably this is because they represent variations or equivalents of an Unconscious/Null State OR a lack of the owning player controlling the figure. However, it doesn’t make sense to me that POSSESSED should be white-on-gray if SEPSITORIZED is not. Likewise, if dark gray represents Unconscious states, it doesn’t make sense that SHAASVASTI EMBRYO, DOGGED, and NWI are not white-on-gray, since they are variations on an unconscious state. It seems that, in one way or another, the color coding here is inconsistent (or simply arbitrary). Can someone confirm my thoughts OR correct me on why this is? Are there any other tokens that should logically have dark gray with white text based on whatever pattern the game seems to be using here?
    N4tokens 2 (00000).jpg
    REGENERATE, PROXY ACTIVE, TINBOT, TRANSMUTED, and ALBEDO A (but not B) have blue fields with white text. I cannot figure out what, if anything, these tokens have in common. Particularly confusing to me is why Albedo A and B have reversed color schemes (orange and blue)… presumably it is just so that they look aesthetically different than one-another and you can tell at a glance how close you are to losing your Albedo, but I still don’t understand the reason for choosing this particular color scheme.
    N4tokens (00000).jpg (EDIT: This image accidentally has Tinbot twice instead of showing Transmuted, but you get the idea)

    Here are a few other things that feel odd to me:
    • It seems that the color of choice for deployable is green (REPEATER, MINES, DAZER), but NANOSCREEN is green as well - probably should change to a different color.
    • The main color on many tokens is orange. For the most part orange seems to indicate states. However, the WOUND token is inexplicably orange, even though that doesn’t seem to be a state (you’d assume it should be a brighter red for a single wound and darker red for 2 wounds, for example). SPEARHEAD is also orange (is SPEARHEAD a state?) as are others (DECOY 1, REMDRIVER… I don’t think these are states).
    Any other issues with the N4/C1 tokens that could be improved upon?
     
    #1 Lawson, Oct 1, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
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  2. Daniel Darko

    Daniel Darko Well-Known Member
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    I like your observation.
    I was wondering too what the colors tell us and what they don't.

    white/grey: I guess grey is about null states (and sepsitor is wrong).
    The blue ones: They all seen to be some kind of reminder... with a very wide definition of "reminder".
    Albedo-B: Maybe they tried something different without expanding the color-palette.

    I especially like your IMM-B token. The grey extra Information is nice to see and nice to know. ;-)
     
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  3. Gurtana

    Gurtana Member

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    Yes, I wasn't sure why wound is no longer red. It seems obvious that wounded/bloody/injured in a skirmish game would yield a red token colour.

    And I also could not discern a meaning behind the new colours. I suppose it will take some adjustment, but like you I would have preferred a clear colour logic and consistency.
     
  4. Tcional

    Tcional New Member

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    I love the idea of adding stuff like "Reset WIP-3" on IMM-B or "WIP-3" on Targeted, because they would be such a wonderful reminder what the new version of the states do and how to get rid of them.

    As for the Wound x2 I would probably still use two Wound tokens instead of changing Wound into Wound x2, though it could work if both of these were on the same token (still you rarely would use it - mostly on TAGs). I think I will miss the old aesthetic of Orders, Wounds, Unconscious and Prone markers, but I understand the need to keep coherency in colour scheme.

    Are you planning on publishing your tokens once you're done?
     
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  5. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    Damn, some of this new tokens are frigging weird.

    Some suggestions/ideas into improving the design:

    PARA-A and PARA-B graphic language is too similar. I'm not sure if the Capital leter on the middle is enough for me. It's confusing to see them both from far away. Some ways of dealing with this are
    • Using different color schemes on the background. For example Blue and Orange (I've seen you used that one on the wound marker)
    • Changing the Icons, Para B could have a design more sharp and angular more close to a snowflake, you can take that from winterfor logo.
    • Add to the design some graphic details to empathize the difference. For example, Para-A could have some kind of black spiderweb entangling the Icon, Para-B could have a Blue line surrounding the pentagon snowflake...
    NWI and Dogged color scheme should be Red, like wounds and unconscious states. For null states I would use a black/dark grey ring with white text. Like disconnected and posesion. Or Maybe a color inversion between inner and outer ring.
     
  6. Thomashkis

    Thomashkis Active Member

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    I would love if you could make and publish the token sheet, your initial thoughts and ideas look very promising.

    I love the idea of a small reminder on State tokens (IMM-B having Dodge-3 as an example), would be nice to get it on all the states that can be removed like that.

    If it comes to colours, I would prefer to assign a colour to each type of a marker. States would be orange, wound-related tokens would be red (wound, unconscious, NWI, Dogged), all equipment tokens would be green (mines, decoys, tinbots, etc) and link related stuff light blue (Team Leader, Spearhead etc.)
    It also would be nice if you would get some more numbers on Camo markers for us Ariadna players, the number of Combat Group above the orders would be great too
     
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  7. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    Thanks all. I would be happy to publish this stuff once it's finished and release my raw materials so that people can make further modifications for their specific use cases. My only caveat is that originally I wasn't going to do a comprehensive list of ALL the tokens since I'm a newer player and was only going to create the things that I felt I'd need with the factions that I'm currently playing. That said, I could certainly expand it if people find this useful. I do enjoy designing custom game components and iconography, and this has been a fun exercise so far.

    I'm glad people seem to like the subtle notes on the states tokens. It felt like a very important thing to me. As someone who's played a lot of board games and war-games (where a lot of pertinent game info can be fit efficiently on small tokens) it seems crazy to me that Infinity manages to have so many large tokens with so little information often expressed on them. It's a fine balance between making a token immediately readable/recognizable at tabletop distance vs including relevant information, but I'll endeavor to do so.
     
  8. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    Okay, here's a try at cleaning the tokens up and an explanation of the thought process. This is going to be long so I'll highlight specific questions I have in red. Aside from that, constructive criticism is appreciated, though I don't want to turn this into a design by committee, so in the end I'll weigh my own creative desires for the tokens I'm planning to use myself against how other people might want them to be. Here goes:

    GENERAL DESIGN PRINCIPLES
    1) Get some more variety in token color and to make the token color signify something rather than just being seemingly random. Seeing a particular color should help you know at a glance whether a token is good or bad, represents a null state, is a wound, etc.
    2) Add reminder text to the tokens to help the players understand what they do. Particularly for negative states like IMM that require a Reset or Dodge, a reminder of what MOD you'll be making the roll at is very helpful. Also, my hope is that if a player puts out a token that you are unfamiliar with, the reminder text will give you a vague idea of how it works at least so that you don't get "gotcha'd" by it if you're not fully familiar with the rules surrounding a particular state or piece of equipment.
    3) Improve the reminder "Icons" on tokens. The usage of numbers on the tops of the tokens is inconsistent. On camouflage tokens the number represents a discreet identifier so you can keep track of what figure each token represents. On other tokens, such as the wound tokens, it represents a 'value'. It is also unclear when negative mods on a token are explicitly Mimetism (e.g. the -3 on a Camo token) vs when it represents something else (Firewall on the Fairy Dust Supportware)
    4) Make the iconography/artwork on the tokens more clear and specific. Too many tokens look the same as each other, have lazy design, or are visually inconsistent (e.g. most tokens have a vector aesthetic but some are "raster").

    I broke the tokens down into the following categories...

    POSITIVE/NEUTRAL STATES
    I chose 'blue' to represent positive states and abilities and orange to represent negative states. The idea is that if you want to see blue on your guys and orange on the enemy.

    N4_Comparison_000.jpg

    Prone: Not inherently "positive", but Prone is usually at worst a neutral state (so long as it's not due to unconsciousness), so I made it blue. The reminder text is that your MOV is halved.

    Spearhead: changed to blue and a reminder that the Spearhead troop gets only half their burst. I changed the illustration to show only 4 arrows, as a subtle reference to the fact that 4 figures are part of a Coordinated Order.

    Suppressive Fire: The original symbol here has what look like “Order” arrows in the middle. This is confusing because Suppressive fire doesn't give you orders. I’ve replaced it with 3 bullets. That and the reminder text ensure you remember that your burst is 3 when in Suppressive Fire mode.

    Remdriver: The artwork on the N4 token looks like a hobby drone with propellers for some reason. I changed it to imply that the user is manually controlling the drone. A video game controller was more immediately recognizable in silhouette than a joystick/hotas image.

    Nanoscreen: reminder that it grants partial cover. The old image was incomprehensible shapes. This looks more like a technical screen or shield of some sort.

    Albedo A/B: the original colors on this were confusing. I’ve changed it so that Albedo A has a bigger image and B looks like it has deteriorated. The blue color is also lighter/paler as Albedo dissipates. The text reminds you that Albedo creates White Noise.

    Active Proxy: I wasn’t clear on how your opponent was supposed to know who your proxy troops were… not sure if it is important because I never played with troops with this ability, but it seemed like it would be helpful to know who the proxies were and not just who the active one is. The logo was changed to look like a “ghost”. Is it worthwhile to have essentially a non-active "Proxy" marker to go along with the "Active Proxy" token?

    Transmuted: Similar to the original, but with a more polished looking version of the image.

    NEGATIVE STATES
    Orange represents things you need to watch out for. You don't want to see orange tokens on your own troopers, but you would be happy to see them on your opponent.

    N4_Comparison_001.jpg

    IMM-A/B: Changed IMM-A to a spiderweb to reinforce the fact that the effect involves being physically ensnared. Kept IMM-B similar to the original but tweaked it to look more like a snowflake. Included reminder text for the Reset MODs.

    Isolated: kept the image the same. Added reminder text for the Reset penalty and included an Irregular order icon to remind players that an Isolated figure becomes Irregular.

    Targeted: kept the image the same. Added reminder text for the Reset penalty and included an icon showing the +3 MOD that opponents get when attacking a Targeted figure.

    Retreat!: kept the image the same and included an Irregular order icon.

    Unloaded:
    made the image of the cartridge slightly more accurate/legible

    Stunned: Replaced the robot cartoon character image (I don’t know what they were thinking) with something a little more descriptive. Added reminder text.

    UNCONSCIOUS/UNCONTROLLED STATES
    Tokens with a gray inner border (instead of white) cover both the various forms of Unconscious (Unconscious, Shasvastii Embryo, NWI, Dogged) but also the Unconscious-related Disconnected State, as well as states that effectively rob a player of one of their figures (Possessed, Sepsitorized). Note that the color coding form the above is incorporated here as well in the form of 'positive' forms of unconsciousness (blue), negative loss of control (orange), and effectively NULL states (dark gray).

    N4_Comparison_002.jpg

    Unconscious: As explained above, the gray text border is for states surrounding the loss of consciousness and/or loss of control. The dark gray central field here implies an inactive/null state.

    Shasvastii Embryo: same as Unconscious

    Disconnected: Same as Unconscious. The reminder text and dark gray central field underscores that the given peripheral is non-functional.

    NWI: While the gray ring supports the idea that NWI is a form of the Unconscious state, the blue central field shows that it is a ‘positive’ effect for the figure. Reminder text tells you that one more wound will kill the figure. I tweaked the illustration ever so slightly to make it look more like two arrows, because the upper triangle looked too much like an Order symbol.

    Dogged: Same as NWI above - but the illustration remains mostly unchanged.

    Possessed: Same as the above, except the orange central field suggests that the effect of possession is not good for the original owner of the trooper. The reminder text tells you that your figure is treated like an enemy, and the icon on the right reminds both players that the figure does not generate orders. The original image didn’t make much sense to me but, when flipped upside-down, it reminded me of the illustration of the marionette hand from The Godfather, so I changed it to suggest the idea that a TAG is being puppeted.

    Sepsitorized: Same as above. Another incomprehensible image on the original that gives no hint as to what this state is. I changed it to a shattered cube shape to suggest how figures with Cube are susceptible to Sepsitor attacks..

    HEALTH
    I decided that red tokens should be reserved for expressing W/STR (either the lack thereof caused by taking damage or the presence of additional health from being Powered Up). As I mentioned before, the usage of the numbers in orange circles is applied inconsistently on the N4 tokens, so I've scrapped it here in favor of numbers in the name and duplicate symbology on the face of tokens.

    N4_Comparison_003.jpg

    Wound, Wound x2: 2x wounds also shows two crosses now, so it is more apparent at a glance how many wounds the figure has. Red border and white central field makes them look very different than other tokens so you can see them easily on the table.

    Power Up, Power Up x2: inverted from the above (e.g. white border and red core), and using a heart symbol to more explicitly denote health (the name and the lightning bolt symbol on the original tokens doesn’t suggest their usage at all).

    Regeneration: This could have easily been a ‘blue’ token, since it is a positive ability, but because it is ‘health’ related, and in an effort to add more color variety, I made it red. The image is a stitched together heart, and the similarity to my updated Power Up token is intentional since it represents a a method of gaining health (though unlike Power Up it obviously can't go above your starting total health).

    DEPLOYABLES
    These tokens already were the most consistent color-wise, so I've kept them green.

    N4_Comparison_004.jpg

    Mines: These have few changes. The reminder text tells you that they use a small teardrop template to attack. I also tweaked the image at the center of each mine to be more evocative of the type of attack (except for the Viral Mine, which I left the same) since the N4 versions felt too abstract to me.

    Repeater: The image for this bothered me because it is one of the few “raster” style images, with almost everything else being chunky vector-art style. I changed it to something that I think is more evocative of the effect, and the reminder text tells us that the repeater has a hacking zone.

    Dazer: Another raster image that seemed completely nonsensical to me (I get that it’s supposed to look like topographical data but it just looks like a muddle on the table). I thought a “danger, falling rocks” style sign would be appropriate, and the reminder text tells us that the Dazer creates difficult terrain.

    MARKER STATES/FIGURES

    These all represent tokens that take the place of figures on the table (rather than sitting next to them). For this reason I wanted to make them distinctive, and so I completely removed the inner border. The only question with these is, aside from the Camo markers, what color they should be. I thought maybe they could be faction-specific colors for each player since they represent figures on your side - for now I've left them blue and white, which could be thought to represent PanO (even though certain abilities like Seed-Embryo are not possessed by PanO). Another thing I experimented with (on the IMP markers specifically) was a numbering scheme similar to Camo... it seemed to me that it is possible, whether likely or not, that you could have multiple Impersonating figures (or even multiple figures set up with Holoecho or etc.) and therefore need to be able to tell them apart. Is there a benefit to having 'numbered' markers for the sake of identifying which marker represents which troop?

    N4_Comparison_005.jpg

    Camo -3, Camo -6: Camo tokens could obviously come in a variety of colors but I chose a traditional green/brown for the basic -3 Camo and Purple “digital” camo for the -6 Camo (rather than the glow-y raster graphic from the original -6 Camo).

    IMP-1, IMP-2: A mask to suggest the benefit of this state (rather than the generic smiley face). IMP-1 gives -6 MOD to being discovered BUT nowhere in the rulebook does it suggest that this is Mimetism, so I’m not certain if MSV are of any benefit. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. For this reason I’ve changed the color and position of the -6 MOD, so as not to be confused with standard Mimetism.

    Decoy 1, Decoy 2: I’ve included the reminder text “Targetable” on several of these tokens that are used to fill in for troops just to clarify that they are not like “Marker States” which cannot be targeted. Again I have no idea what the original image was trying to get across (it looks like a caricature of Walter White), so I changed it to a helmet resting on a tripod… a bit cheeky but it works for me.

    Holoecho 1, Holoecho 2: Another updated image, which contains 3 figures to suggest the effect of the state. I’ve included a 180 degree arc (same as the originals).

    Tinbot: I question why a token even exists for this but here it is.

    Seed-Embryo: Looks less like a seed now and more like an embryo.

    SUPPORTWARE
    The N4 tokens for these are just plain bad for various reasons. I've changed them and added a dark blue inner border to identify them specifically as Supportware. They also maintain the blue color-scheme for the central field to suggest they are positive effects.
    N4_Comparison_006.jpg

    SUP: FAIRY DUST, HI, REM, TAG: The -3 in a red circle on the original makes it look like this ability gives Mimetism -3, which it DOES NOT. I removed it to avoid confusion and instead put the “Firewall -3” info in the reminder text. I’ve also included the targets of the ability in big letters on each to make it more obvious which kind of unit is affected.

    SUP: ASSISTED FIRE: Reminder text tells you what it does (gives Marksmanship) and the new illustration is more obviously a rifle scope (the original featured an arrow that is reminiscent of Dogged or NWI and doesn’t make sense).

    SUP: ENHANCED REACTION: The original inexplicably looks almost exactly like Assisted Fire… very lazy design that has nothing to do with the function of the ability. I’ve changed it to feature two bullets and reminder text that it increases your ARO burst.

    SUP: CONTROLLED JUMP: This has got to be the worst icon design in the entire game. Clearly the person who did the illustration for the original had no communication with the design team, because it looks like they assumed this Supportware had something to do with the “Jump” skill rather than “Combat Jump”. I’ve change the icon to a parachute to make it more visually descriptive.

    FOXHOLE
    This is the odd-man-out just because I made it S3 so that you can actually place a figure onto it. For some reason the N4 token is normal-sized, but it seemed like an obvious fix. It includes an additional note that it provides partial cover in addition to Mimetism.
    N4_Comparison_007.jpg

    So that's everything for now. So far the only tokens I don't have are the various Order tokens (Regular, Irregular, Lieutenant, Impetuous), Fireteams Tokens, the Command token, the objective tokens, and the larger silhouette sized (S3 and larger) variations for Camo tokens. But I think this is a good start, and I'm looking forward to thoughts/reactions.
     
    #8 Lawson, Oct 7, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
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  9. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    These are awesome. I hope we can get some sheets made up for printing :)
     
  10. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    What about a joint venture with @toadchild for his token creator?

    BTW, you missed the Camo without Mimetism modifiers.
    And yes, they need to be numbered. We also had different colors both for Camo and TO (purple, blue, yellow).
     
  11. Lesh'

    Lesh' Infinity LATVIA
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    Looking great. Gonna echo what Tox said, you better reach out to Toadchild and see if both of you can collaborate, would really love to get these tokens printed.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Some feedback:

    IMP-1 - correct, MSV specifically states it only works with poor/low visibility zones and mimetism, it does not work with Impersonation
    AP Mines - the iconography used says "viral" or "shock" to me*
    Monofilament Mine - the icon looks very similar to E/M mine, perhaps a scimitar's blade or something could be appropriate?
    Repeater - I can not find anything in the rules that supports that a Repeater benefits from Mimetism, so the -3 makes no sense on it. The original token's -3 seem to be a reference to the Firewall MOD, maybe "Firewall -3" is more appropriate as reminder text?
    Repeater & Dazer - might be just me, but I'd prefer to have some colour separation from the mines to indicate that these are ongoing effects

    * suggesting something similar to this (this is from Call of Duty): [​IMG]
     
    #12 Mahtamori, Oct 7, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
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  13. Arkaon1125

    Arkaon1125 Well-Known Member

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    Awesome Work! I'll definitely will use this!

    There is a way to have a reference sheet to your markers to print them out?
     
  14. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    A minor point on Spearhead - it’s also used for Peripheral (Controller)*, where there is no effect on Burst, and only three Peripherals.

    Excellent stuff!

    *Used for Antipodes and Puppetbots.
     
  15. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Excellent to see the tokens in a properly unified visual language! Great job, mate. I wish CB's graphic designers understood what you achieved here and applied it in their work :(

    And yes, Ariadna called and said we want numbered Camo Tokens, please. Even in TacWin I can put down about 20 camo tokens between all the Decoy / Minelayer / Camouflage models.

    Also, Camouflage tokens for Antipodes, please? <3
     
  16. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    You'll need
    Camo -3 size 40mm and 55mm
    Camo -6 size 40mm and 55mm
    Holoecho 1 and 2 size 55mm (I don't think there is something on 40mm at the moment)
     
  17. RolandTHTG

    RolandTHTG Still wandering through the Night

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    I like most of the updates, so the following is just comments on what I noticed as issues
    • I don't think an un-active proxy token is needed, as that's just a second token to move around when I switch which model is the active body.
    • I think numbered camo tokens are needed, as it helps remember that 1 is a model, 2 is the mine, etc.
    • I think NWI and Dogged need red on the token, as I've always thought of them as a Health state, not an unusable state like Unconscious. What about 1 of the following changes?:
    1. Use red instead of blue for the background, but leave the grey border to show they're related to the Unconscious state per the rules
    2. leave the background blue to show that they're a positive state, but change the border to red like on the wound tokens, as they're commonly referred to as extra-wound states.
     
    #17 RolandTHTG, Oct 7, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
  18. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    This is amazing work and I am anxiously waiting for a token sheet that we can print!
     
  19. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    Thanks all, will go through these notes and make the appropriate changes.
     
  20. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    Just to clarify, I was always planning to number the camo tokens. Here's a mockup of the options, with added 40mm and 55mm tokens based on the requests. I also tweaked the Camo without mimetism to look sort-of like the old Desert Storm camo, just to codify the different artwork per 'level' of camo.

    XXX_CAMO (00000).jpg

    I'm sorry if I was unclear about the numbering scheme. My question was actually this: Are there any OTHER tokens in addition to Camo tokens that might require numbering in case multiple troops have the same ability? e.g. what if you have two troopers both with IMP-1 and you need to be able to tell them apart while they are in Marker form? What if you have two troopers each with two HoloEchos and they get close to one another and you mix up who owns which HoloEchos? Is this a concern? Should there be numbering options for these as well?

    Note that I've adjusted the borders on the larger tokens so that they can accommodate 1.5" and 2" size in addition to the default 40mm/55mm without cutting anything off. This is because I'm planning to print these on sticker-paper and mount to acrylic discs, and while I won't have trouble getting 40 or 55mm discs, my hole punching options may be limited to 1.5" and 2" circles. The difference between 25mm and 1" is negligable so there shouldn't be any problems with a 1 inch punch vs 25mm.
     
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