I’m not sure if we’re talking at cross-purposes or not. :-( HI generally went down, but appear to have got more vulnerable to Hacking than the amount they went down, because Oblivion and Carbonite are more widespread and substantially more powerful than in N3, and synergise very well with each other and with Targeted. Which would make non-Hackable units more valuable in comparison. See the Observancy thread: I don’t know if this will actually turn out to be the case once metas settle down a bit in a few months time, but HI are definitely more vulnerable than they were in N3.
To me Bakunin is still just not fully fitting in to their fluff (or maybe what I wish their fluff was), which is why I haven't picked them up. They at least weren't ignored in N4, but I think they still need some undivided attention to hit their potential. However good they may or may not be now, I have to agree they feel half-baked just in looks. Seriously guys, stop giving things to Corregidor. You only have so much time.
they basically work like that already in a list, the morlocks run their rabid asses up the table soften up the enemy then the TM follows up and finishes the job, the idea that they need to be in a fireteam to accomplish this stupid and would do (and does) nothing except highlight how dumb mixed fireteams (and fireteams in general) are and the warping effect on it has on people's model assessment (something isnt good unless it can get dirt cheap FT bonuses). Thata also annoyed me, and considering TMs are just moderators that decided they need the heavy armour it would make more sense to go with the mods. Baseline NCO was a mistake, sure they're unhackable but due to other changes in the game (shotgun change, the ungodly proliferation of shock, more stuff packing DTWs), leads them to being way overcosted trash that just falls over and stay down meaning that 30 something point doc you paid for (providing theyre still alive) isnt doing anything. They still compete too heavily with RG's who are more durable, cheaper, have better utility and as much as I hate them better FT options. While they're hackable they are one of the units in the game with access to a tinbot -6 firewall makes them fairly resistant to it. Also it's Bakunin, if you havent established hacking superiority before moving them into midfield you deserve to have them get bricked. Also the perimeter weapon change really hurts the TM, as now it doesnt have its passive protection running around it to ward off incoming threats or clear mines and emaulers before moving into an area.
All that being said after my next tournament I will probably spend a few months experimenting with BJC to see what shenanigans I can come up with. currently have an idea that involves using an RG to escort moderators to something so they can beat it senseless as essentially a regular uberfall with tasers
I finally get to play my first N4 game on saturday here, but I think new Bakunin is Very Good. Yeah, I don't know if the observance troops are any better, but I'm most excited about what this new Clockmaker can do for me. My vision of BJC is much more Weird Police than it is Sisters of Battle so I am comfortable with that
You make a reasonable point and I don't entirely disagree with you. My point is that it's much more likely to work out for a reasonably good play experience in the way you say if the profiles are well thought through so that they are: a) not too expensive to be well balanced due to paying for too many skills an individually expensive easy to kill model won't use (eg NCO on all profiles, +1 SWC on Kusanagi) and b) have reasonably effective link options compared to other things available. This doesn't appear to be the case with the Observance troops in general right now, or for a long time, perhaps ever. I fully appreciate that would be very difficult to do with every profile in the game at once. But: a) It is what was promised (eg by Bostria in his White Noise interview where he said they would look at every profile to see what it needed to be worthwhile, rather than applying formula adjustments) b) Observance troops have had basically this same problem for a very long time, at least since N2. More than 5 years I think. That's a long time. It never seems to be their turn, outside seemingly fairly token gestures, like SI as a seeming afterthought on Kusanagi (not that that isn't welcome and appreciated, it is). It's got to the point people speculate that CB have something against them (eg again on White Noise recently), which I can't see, would be odd. They just feel conistently overlooked. So it doesn't seem unreasonable to: a) Point this out. Especially since these kind of issues mainly seem to get fixed eventually mainly if the community assertively and visibly highlights them enough (eg PanO with Bolts, Ariadna with Unknown Ranger, Nomads with Grenzers) b) Make hopefully reasonable and helpful suggestions about how it could work a bit better with the extra brain power we have available to devote to our own factions in our own hobby.
Sad to hear the possibility of Tasky and Morlocks being together has been denied. Anyhow, I somewhat agree that HI's got rather vurnerable to hacking, so the point decrease is kinda legit. But the MIs... It's gonna take a while for me to fully understand the design purpose of them, I guess. At first glance, other than being non-hackable, I can't see any sufficient expected outputs with those costings.
While, again, I agree overall, bear in mind that what’s mainly being discussed as a threat to HI is Camouflaged Hackers, and Sniffers no longer exist. Clearing Camo out of the midfield is substantially harder than it was in N3 due to this. Plus the 15 Trooper cap means that brute-forcing Order-inefficient Discover Rolls or Intuitive Attacks is also going to be a struggle, assuming they’re in places where you can get LoF in the first place, and are only Camo instead of Hidden Deployment. That Stemplar Zone will be trying to do a lot of work... ;-)
Meh, Morlocks and Uberfalls exist. Sure it might take a few orders. But trading a 6pt WB for a 20+pt camo hacker is something too.
we will see, if hacking is so impactfull, then zeros, brando, moderators with pitchers, morlocks, UFK... a lot of them will be more important than any observance unit. You are missing the point that those units were mainly ignored in N3, were not working then, and got nothing of that direct check in, in n4, just extra rules to make them more expensive. Or at least, that is the impression some of us have. I don't think hacking will be so impactfull in the meta. Yes, some people will bring more hackers..but the number of hackers will remain more or less the same for most people, because if so much hacking start to appear, a lot of units to hunt down those hackers will appear too. Losing sniffers is not a problem: I've never seen one sniffer in a game table, never. Maybe against ariadna someone used that, but didn't get the chance to see someone using it. Sensors are there, and not all of them are hackable, but even the hackable ones might help to discover those hackers when they hack the remote. Also, HI got way down in points, not so much hacking, so more than impactfull, hacking might become a necessity. Is not hacking the problem, was not in n3, but some HI, and the bad performance of hacking in n3, which is still to be seen in n4
All this hacking talk reminds me of N3 start. I used to think that I'll always take at least 3 hackers and cover myself in repeaters. Turned out there are other priorities and you still need heavy hitters. Although hacking does look stronger on paper it's nowhere near as broken as old jammers or Tohaa's Eraser. Now you can even reset from Isolation. I don't see any use in Moiras as an effective counter to hacking (maybe just ODD sniper/aro to utilize that nco on LT order). I disagree that it's some elaborate buff for MI. I can easilly just get moderator + tinbot riot grrl + engineer + ODD Bot + maybe wolff. There, 2W ODD with -6 to hack and engineer and still cheaper than moiras. I think that after a while people will just resort to camo (comms attack is still attack and needs a valid target) and veteran troops or learn to avoid hackers. Nothing big will change, though maybe some ITS missions will make it better. But hey, at least now it's viable to take Vertigo Zonds since targeted does not drop at the end of the turn. And enemy will be forced to spend some orders on reset just not to get BS18 missile.
I think the nuns need a point reduction and get rid of nco apart from one or two profiles, healer needs a huge drop 10 points or so I think or change avicenna and dak to a full on wildcard, custodiers probably could do with being just under 30 than just over Prowlers, could probably do with a slight drop, 39 for the spitfire is crazy high as your already paying a swc tax aswell and the same with some of the other profiles, just now its in the TO price range, For the sin eater just get rid of neurocentics and just give it total reaction instead, Taskmaster I would say change to join either mod or riot team link team, I would personally love a custodier to join a riot grrl link for a disgusting tinbot combo on them but I'm not sure if that will happen It would also be nice to have another place to hide a possible LT in a tough core Honestly the a few more wildcard options in general could improve BAK, and fluff wise I don't think they really have a reason not too I mean if Manly man von wolfenstein can join a moiras or riots why cant avicenna join the moiras? I think its so close to being good it just needs some tweaks Right now whenever I go to make a bak list I normally just go over to starco and make a far more flexible one, Sure you dont get the title of moira but Emily is just a far better option!
If you made Avicenna a wildcard I don't think you'd ever see another Reverend Healer. Which shows you something about both I guess. I don't mind Obervance being their own little fluffy module in BJC. Meaning few If any in sectorial Wildcards. But then they gotta stand on their own two feet. Coulda then given Zoe and Pi Well duo tho. Surely that's a gimme.
Oh also, I think IJW is right about Hacking being a big deal in N4. It just applies less as a thing to counter with MI for Nomads in general and Bakunin in particular, because Nomad Hacking in general is what other factions should fear, and because Bakunins MI is not great. And we are back near where we started...
avicena with moiras means "why bring reverend healer?" at the moment. I don't think it is an oversight but something intended. another point, prowlers don't pay SWC tax anymore. Seems that all MI are paying the same SWC that HI, or more like HI have discounted SWC, not only in points (another thing where MI are worse than HI, a BS14 DDO Hi paying the same SWC than a moira is a bit ridiculous, but well, is a new meta, we have to see)
Ah but this is the Meteor Zond faction. That airdropping Sensor has given me so many lovely chances to defang minefields etc. Shame that Sat-Lock is gone now, but at least Spotlight is a thing (not against camo but that's just an extra order or two to Sensor beforehand I guess).
