Taking a Janissary to gain a unique weapon profile makes sense, its the identical weapon profiles that I can't wrap my head around. I feel that the base price of the Janissary should be lower or the Asawira higher (if I remember correctly, Asawiras used to be 45-50pts in N2 or N3, which seemed fitting given their abilities). Is it a bad thing? Now that impetuous orders are voluntary, as opposed to required in previous editions, it seems like you would only use it when it is in your favor, no?
Frenzy activates during the States Phase at the end of the turn in which the Asawira kills something. Including your opponent's turn. This denies you the ability to use cover. Note that Janissary scores went up. BS 14 now, higher CC value (whee!) and BTS was boosted to 6.
Sure, but you wouldn't take a solo Janissary with AP rifle+LSG anyway. Or an Asawira with that profile for that matter. Those profiles are fireteam fillers for the sectorials. If you take an HI in Vanilla, you're taking the special weapons profiles. Which you can't compare since Asawiras and Janissaries don't have any of the same special weapons, being completely different types of units. Impetuous units don't get cover. That's huge for anyone, but particularly for HI. The big advantage of HI is that high ARM and two wounds make them very hard to remove while in cover. Take away the cover and they get a lot worse.
Hello all, I've played a few games of QK in N4 now and I wanted to share my thoughts and get some input. One of the things that really jumped out at me is that QK seems to have lost most of the unique features that made us stand out relative to other factions (number and efficiency of link teams) and the increase to 4-4 MOV for medium infantry eliminates the order efficiency benefit that came with using light infantry (which broadly affects all of Haqq, not just QK). Previously, Hafza gave us a unique way to build cheap link teams with embedded specialists and/or surprise AROs. With N4, now every sectorial has a plethora of Special Fireteam and Wildcard link options, and even within QK we now have Wildcard Odalisques and Sekban, both of which seems more capable than the Hafza when it comes to building a mixed unit link. The Hafza LT is the only profile I regularly use now, for obvious reasons, but I struggle to find use for any of the other profiles. If Hafza were allowed to link with mercenary troops (like in N2), or if they had received NCO instead of the Sekbans, I think it would have helped them stay relevant. The hard cap on 15 models also skews our lists towards heavier, more expensive models as we would otherwise max out on models before hitting the points ceiling (another reason why Hafza seem less relevant). I recreated one of my old N3 lists in Army 7 (odalisque haris, ghulam core, triple Hawwa FO, double Yuan Yuan, plus some remotes). It has 2 combat groups of 9 models each, with 8 points left over. I'm really struggling to understand how CB decided on 15 models for the cap. Limiting to 2 combat groups seems like it would have been more reasonable, or just eliminating combat groups altogether if they kept the 15 model cap, as split order pools feel more like a handicap than a benefit (especially since you want to hang on to your command tokens for link reformation in QK). As they are wildcards now, I see no reason to actually build an Odalisque or Sekban Fireteam. It seems much more efficient to build a Djanbazan, Janissary, or Ghulam Fireteam and then throw in an Odalisque and/or Sekban to add extra capability. Is there any reason not to view it this way? I understand that QK is discontinued at the moment, but has CB indicated whether this is likely a permanent condition or just a temporary one? QK is my favorite faction, but I might start playing HB if we are going to be in limbo indefinitely. I've looked at the NA2 factions, but none of them really jump out at me. Also, is there a material difference between Special Fireteam: "X unit can be part of any Fireteam of Y units" and "X unit counts a Y unit for Fireteam composition"? Wild Bill is the former with Kaplans and the latter with Janissaries, but they seems to give the same effect.
The 15-order cap is great for the game. That said, factions that would otherwise have been crippled by the cap got redesigns. QK is definitely in need of a redesign, partially because, as you say, it's just so old and has been overtaken by other factions. And partially because its only remaining unique element - Yuan Yuans - is a lot less interesting with the 15-order cap. I doubt there's a QK redesign in the near future, so if you're finding them boring you should certainly consider HB. That said, maybe read some posts by players who still seem to be enjoying QK - @AssaultUnicorn comes to mind - before you decide for sure whether to shelve the sectorial. A Janissary core has to have at least one Janissary or unit that counts as a Janissary. So you can make a core with no actual Janissaries in it as long as it has Bill. Whereas Bill can join a Kaplan core but it still has to also have a Kaplan in it.
I guess my real question is why 15 specifically? It seems very arbitrary unless there was some intention to optimize unit designs around the concept of 20 pts per model as an average, which doesn't seem to be the case. When building a list, there seems to be a binary decision as to whether you build for 10 models (1 combat group) or 15 models (2 combat groups). Ending up somewhere in between (11 or 12 models over 2 combat groups) just seems inferior. On the Wild Bill example, is the advantage just that it would allow a Wildcard-only core? Will Bill + Leila + Rouhani + 2x Sekban/Odalisque/Hafza? It seems a bit one-dimensional since there aren't other profiles that are linkable with Janissaries specifically.
Most people seem to be sticking to the max 15 orders, but I've seen a reasonable number of lists with 13 or so. I don't think it's automatically inferior. If you follow the paradigm of one active group and a secondary group with ARO pieces, you don't need a full 5 in the secondary group. Or you can split 7-6 or similar to have two active groups. Aside from the points savings, it can work well if you want to induce your opponent to play around non-existent hidden deployment or drop troops, or to make a mine look like a trooper. I don't think I've seen even one single-combat-group list played in N4, though. They didn't play well in N3, and they're probably even worse in N4. Certainly I would rather play a list with 12 troopers than 10. Yes that core would be allowed. I couldn't say whether it would be an advantage or not. I was just answering your question about how the rule works. It's a distinction that exists in lots of different factions, some of which may have fireteam builds where it matters more.
2 Hafza, Leila, Rouhani and WildBill is a Janissary Link. 2 Hafza, Leila, Rouhani and 1 Sekban or Odalisque ist a Sekban or Odalisque Link Sekban and Odalisques can form Fireteams: Core of their own. I played QK in N2 as it was the sectorial I started with. Old love! :) I ran Sekban Haris and Kaplan Core back then (if I remember correctly). It was lots of fun to have 2 fireteams available where everyone else just had one. I played some 200pts games in N4 and I really liked it. It felt not so much different from other Sectorials I tested (Like StarCo or Dahshat) and I definitely see a decrease in power with QK compared to other, more recent sectorials. But I think, QK still has the right tools to win (at least for my playstyle): - lots of NWI (all of them are Wildcards) - a decent Hacking game (Mobile Brigada Hacker, Leila, Druze KHD Pitcher) - good midfield presence (Al'Hawwa Minelayer-Sniper & all other profiles, Bashi Bazouk, YuanYuan)
@Muad'dib with the new profiles I think hafza should have at least N2. It match with his Lore and give them some utility in links. Another option is give them CoC profile, but i think it is the least probable.
CoC is welcome in QK, but then we would need some actually aggressive Lts which we don't unless you call Hafza Spitfire a good aggressive Lt. I dunno, maybe it would give us a new reason to run a Brigada Lt with MULTI Rifle.
CoC is not that important in QK, but Counterintelligence would have been a real blessing. Most of the time you start with one order short in each group thanks to the Yuan Yuan and if you don't use the NCO-Sekbans as a first push, you often end up with just seven orders in turn one. There Counterintelligence would really pay off.
It's not arbitrary. CB studied the ITS statistics in 2019, before making the troop limit decision, in order to see the average number of troops that most lists ran. That number appears be 14. There were outliers at 16-20 in the form of Dashat, Hassassins, Caledonia, and a few others. At the time, people were talking about Dashat slightly over-performing, and it being a real unfun slog to play against some of those 20 order lists. In addition to this CB wanted to recapture the "special operations" feel of Infinity, which means you take a select list, not every troop and their dog. Given the feedback about some of those larger lists, CBs intentions for how the game should play, and the average number of troops taken, 15 seems to be the right figure. It's 1 more than the 2019 list average, and therefore stifles few factions, but is significantly less than the upper bounds - which is what people wanted. Whether it was the right way to limit troop spam is another question. But it certainly wasn't arbitrary - it actually looks as though it was carefully considered based on existing list patterns.
In addition to your points, in the previous season they trialled the "tactical window" ITS extra limiting armies to 15 orders and it proved very popular.
Did they happen to publish the frequency numbers for the ITS 2019 list statistics? I'd be curious to take a look. Since Infinity already had a cap of 10 models per combat group, there seems to be an inherent bias which would make mean (average) a less predictive value for the dataset. As an example, if 50% of lists were using 10 troops and the remaining 50% were evenly distributed between 16 and 20 troops, then your average would still be 14, though no one actually ran an 11-15 troop list. I've played against Ariadna tar pit lists with 20+ units and I agree that they are not fun to play against so I see where the 15 unit limit comes from, but I don't feel that setting a cap without changing other rules that impact order efficiency (changing the concept of combat groups and/or limiting the number of times that a model can be activated by regular orders in a turn for example). One problem in particular that has been causing me trouble is the use of Counterintelligence to remove 4 orders from my order pool on the 1st turn. Even if I've built a list with 15 troopers (8/7), if 2 of the troopers in group 2 are Yuan Yuan, my opponent can effectively leave me at 4 orders in group 1 and 5 orders in group 2. Its even worse at lower trooper counts, until you hit 10, at which point you are back to 5-6 orders (depending on whether bring an airborne trooper).
That's not what counterintelligence does. That's not what it does at all! If your opponent spend a token to reduce orders Counterintelligence reduces the amount of orders stripped to 1 instead of 2. Or If your opponent spends a token to limit you to one Command Token in your first Active Turn, Counterintelligence instead limits you to spending two in your first Active turn. It's a purely defensive ability and certainly doesn't let you strip additional orders from your opponent! In addition you've got some really nice NCOs in QK, the GL Ghulam and Wildcard Sekban, which can get you another order or two depending on your Lt. choice.
Thats legitimately the worst misreading of rules I've ever seen. Good god, -4 orders Re; the questions in the OP, dunno whats already been covered here as I have only read first and last posts lol. 1) Are odalisques good? Yes. I like one as a CQB option for links. I've seen them used in multiples as a middle costed link filler with various utility. 2) How to use Druze and Kaplans? They look really nice on the shelf, same way they do for every other army. 3) How to use shotguns? The direct template makes them a miniature chain rifle, and give the same offensive and defensive utility as N3's chain rifle + BS weapon builds. Use it to force particular ARO or as auto-hit defensive options. They are very good and definitely still worth using, but you need to consider shotgun models more expendible than previously. 4) Are doctors good with all the shock? I generally only see doctors for use with shock immune models - HI, NWI+SI etc. Generally anything worth healing probably has one of these traits anyway. This isn't really all that different from N3. 5) Do people use grenade launchers? Highly meta dependent, but I have not seen them. People are too busy using guided missiles instead.
Holy sheet. That explains why I felt totally hamstrung. We totally read it as allowing the Counterintelligence player to spend 2 command tokens on Strategic Use, rather than increasing the number of command tokens that could be spent on the first turn from 1 to 2 if a Strategic Use token had capped it at 1. I greatly appreciate the clarification.
As I already said - there were a few outliers that ran more, but the majority of factions didn't. There was a public scrape of all ITS data in 2019, undertaken by a member of the community. A lot of information was taken from that. It was a terrible sampling method so not too many conclusions could be made in any kind of valid way, but it did provide a lot of infomation about what the average list looked like. CB posted in the thread where the data was discussed and confirmed that they had seen the exact same numbers that we were looking at - none of it was surprising to them. I really can't remember what the names of the threads were because this happened over multiple. One of them was something simple like "2019 ITS data" or "2019 ITS numbers" or something. Then there was a second thread about the 15 order cap in which CB confirmed they had studied the ITS data. I can't for the life of me remember the name of that one.
There's also an episode of the White Noise podcast from last October (I think) where Hell"Not a Carlos"Lois talks about the ITS stats, Tactical Window, and 15 order cap in N4, among other things.
