1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra PolĂ­tica de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

My best list, with some commmentary

Discussion in 'Tohaa' started by borings, Nov 5, 2018.

  1. SN0flux

    SN0flux Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2017
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    14
    Very detailed response and exactly what I was looking for. I'm running my 19 order list tonight and I'll try to remember to take photos and report back. I think the only change I made was to remove the kamaels for a Clipsos sniper. My opponent tends to play JSA, so some melee brawling will happen, and as he pushes up the table I can snipe from behind. Less button pushers, but I'll leave them back until the end. Not sure which mission we're attempting either, so that may affect the overall outcome. If it's a Xenotech mission I can safely pair it with the Kaeltar
     
    borings likes this.
  2. n21lv

    n21lv Sakiel Box

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    280
    Likes Received:
    401
    @borings what are your thoughts on Gao-Rael Spitfire? I don't like the Sniper option as I find little utility for it, but Spitfire option turned out to be a really decent midfield Camo flusher, assuming they have FD L1 in the current season.
     
  3. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    160
    They do indeed have FD in the current season. The spitfire is an ideal beneficiary. :)
     
    Abrilete likes this.
  4. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2018
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    86
    So, the gao rael is a weird piece to me overall. Historically, i haven't found the gao rael to be too useful because of its slow move speed, but with fd1 you can kind if make up for that if you aggressively deploy it. Msv2 is really great when you need it, but irrelevant when you don't. What i mean by that is normally, i would rather be in a position where my opponents are having to change their lists to deal with me than vice versa. That being said the spitfire could definitely be a better pick than the k1 lt in certain situations. I would say that for missions where kills are not as important and you expect to see a large amount of camo, it could take the place of the sukeul lt. Youd hafta have one of the kamael be yer lt, and you wouldnt want it to be in a fireteam with the kaeltar in that case. If you wanted to be really spicy you could go for a gao rael lt, and have one of the kamael be a kaeltar with a symbiobomb

    Thanks for pointing that out, ill append the post to include that profile.
     
    #24 borings, Nov 7, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  5. Leper

    Leper UPGRADE: EXILE
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    71
    Hi, @borings. I'm your local WarCor. You might recognize me from such local events as: The league you're currently playing in, the local holiday miniature swap, the upcoming tournament on the 17th, etc. I'm very sorry that you don't feel I'm present, or are a hindrance to community growth! I'll really try to do better in the future.

    I know it'd be off-topic here, so feel free to hit me up on FB (the Philly FB group, or send me a DM) with any feedback or suggestions.
     
  6. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2018
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    86
    hahahaha! since when? also, thats great, and i'm sorry i thought you were just a normal guy trying to make infinity happen
     
    RobertShepherd likes this.
  7. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2018
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    86
    ok so, i took pictures of what an average board might look like here in philly. the buildings take up a little less than 25% of the table space, and scatter terrain takes up an even smaller amount, mebbe 5%?
    here's one for example:[​IMG]

    i uploaded some more in the imgur folder, with different angles and buildings laid out to show i measured to ensure 25% table coverage here: https://imgur.com/a/Brl2ck8
     
    Grathak, RobertShepherd and ijw like this.
  8. Leper

    Leper UPGRADE: EXILE
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    71
    I've been back in the program since August. And, as the work of a lot of other dedicated folks in the Philadelphia area shows, you don't need to be a WarCor to help build a community. :)
     
    RobertShepherd likes this.
  9. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2018
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    86
    Aaaand, for those interested, pictures and explanations for deployment and how i construct smoke tunnels (i totally forgot to set up for second turn deployment my bad) https://imgur.com/a/0J4aeKt
     
    RobertShepherd, wendigo and ijw like this.
  10. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,655
    Likes Received:
    5,261
    I strongly recommend 'clumping' the buildings slightly - their very even distribution across the table (combined with everything but two AT43 containers being the same height) is unintentionally making life easier for your list by making most fire lanes roughly a template wide at some point. It's also going to make choosing table sides more meaningful.
     
  11. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2018
    Messages:
    490
    Likes Received:
    407
    Seen this table and thought, it looks more or less exactly the same way our tables look like. Therefore it seems our meta is compareable to the one of @borings
     
    borings and RobertShepherd like this.
  12. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,655
    Likes Received:
    5,261
    Then I suggest the same thing. Apart from anything else, it's going to make for more varied games. Don't forget that the table sides should be different enough that choosing Deployment over Initiative should be a valid option.
     
    Thaddius and Leper like this.
  13. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2018
    Messages:
    490
    Likes Received:
    407
    One side normally has a better sniper position/taler building.
    Personally I prefer a good side and a verry good side.
     
  14. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2018
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    86
    From experience, if the buildings are clumped it actually makes deployment and advancing somewhat easier. Clumps will often make it so i only have to throw 3-4 smokes, because of the way the angles work out. Clumps on their side also means they almost definitely have their guys clumped up as well, which increases the lethality of the makaul. And with clumps it becomes easier to deploy because more safe corners are created. As for building height, ive found it only really affects the game if the buildings on the other side are taller than about 8" and they dont have ladders, and if people put all of their guys up there out of reach. If people do that it becomes much harder to cc everything, but it also makes it harder for them to get points. If they have tall buildings and a lot of camo, the game gets much harder, but still winnable.
    That being said, i agree there should be more variance in building height. Often we have a decent amount of crates stacked on top of those, with the smaller buildings sometimes stacked on the larger ones.
    I have seen/heard of tournament tables where one side has a significantly taller building, often with sight lines to at least 75% of the board. Is this a standard thing? A sniper on one of those could be a prollem for this list, especially if there wasnt a way to get the sukeul within 32" of it, or if there were literally no buildings to hide behind while advancing the tower. On the flip side, sniper towers make this list much stronger if its going second, as you can just throw as many guys up there prone as fit, and as long as they arent visible from the ground you are golden
     
    #34 borings, Nov 8, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
    RobertShepherd likes this.
  15. SN0flux

    SN0flux Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2017
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    14
    Played my match on Armory, and probably should've focused more on objectives/holding the room, but It was a fun game. Opponent played Ikari in preparation for a charity tournament we have coming up. I snaked around the right side with Makauls to take out an Al Fasid in the back, losing one Makaul in the melee fight. He dropped all his Yuan Yuans, only one on my end of the table taking out two of the Kaauri (Symbiomate proxies) right in the middle. Two others took out the Makaul triad that ran up the table. Turn two i spent a few too many orders getting my Classified and couldn't pressure the room as much as I should have, so I wasn't able to get inside before Turn 3 where his fireteam picked up a light flamethrower to cover my entrance.

    I definitely should've rushed the room with first turn and makauls/Kaauri and held it with fear of flamethrowers but I got good practice again on the smoke tunnels.

    Not pictured in the image is my Clipsos sniper on the far left upper parapet. It was able to take out his Rui Shi and Evo Hacker bot on reactive 2.

    https://imgur.com/gallery/GSpZiWK
     
    borings likes this.
  16. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2018
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    86
    i usually lose about half the makaul during turn 1. they are really just there as shock troops to cause a diversion while you get to objectives. the kaauri are pretty good at holding the armory, with them in suppressive it becomes hard to get in there reasonable. only prollem is getting more than two in there. i think learning how to make use of yer plethora of orders is the biggest hurdle, and then learning how many to spend on objectives. i think a clipsos minelayer would prolly be better for armory, but you said you weren't sure of the mission beforehand right? regardless it seems like you liked it. trading a 13 model for a 45/53 pt (not sure which fasid it was) feels pretty good right?
    one thing, looking at deployment it looks like you were not utilizing the kaauri to their full potential, they work a bit better when they have sightlines down the sides to aro people walking in off the table edge. also how did one yuan yuan kill two of them? lucky armor/bts saves? were they not in suppressive fire?
     
    RobertShepherd likes this.
  17. Thaddius

    Thaddius Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    163
    Likes Received:
    241
    I think a table should include both clumped sections for players that may bring warbands and a more open section for those bringing stronger long ranged ARO pieces can play. For the more exposed sections I'm not talking death lanes with no cover. The use of scatter terrain that doesn't block LOF of an S2 but provides cover will allow for meaningful plays particularly in these sections.

    The table looks like a similar setup to the SML table that is used at our club. It is fine though we tend to stack buildings to give variation in building height and opening up fire lanes not just from deployment to deployment but also diagonal approaches. Having said that we do have more buildings to use so are able to play around with the elevation. Stacking a few buildings may open up sections. If you can fill it in with scatter terrain I think you might see a change in play experience on the board.
     
    #37 Thaddius, Nov 9, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
    ChoTimberwolf likes this.
  18. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    160
    Some very useful commentary and images @borings, thankyou.

    It's also been interesting to see some of the feedback. I think a few people are having the same instinctual response I did, which is utter revulsion at the construction and underlying philosophy of your list (and a sneaky but increasingly strong belief that a 90% win rate with it is totally believable under the right circumstances) and therefore providing in the immediate a response detailing all the things that can be done in a meta to limit its power. ;)

    In the broader context of getting people talking about melee tohaa though, I think it's an excellent conversation and you've explained your thoughts and the list's strengths very well.
     
    Cothel and ChoTimberwolf like this.
  19. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    854
    Likes Received:
    1,547
    Diagonal table layout, I see you guys know what you're doing (seriously, having a square table with a square grid layout is a mistake).

    @borings it's fun that you came to the same conclusion with Tohaa vs JSA even with your type of list. I've started JSA end of last year and quickly realized that a lot of Tohaa's inherent strenghts (Order efficiency, Eclipse galore, multiwound models w. Mates,...) don't work against JSA. Same as you, I value CC a lot for the ridiculous damage potential, dispatching a triad in between Eclipse AROs, DTWs, them shooting back or simply making ARM saves/pulling Mates can be quite tedious. Unless you're a CC24 MA4 dude who reliably oneshots 1 artichoke per Order.

    Good point about the mass Kauri and mass Makaul. Adding to what you and others said, this is the same principle that makes USAriadna work. One HFT + BS11 gun is annoying, but not much of a threat. 2 are manageable. 4 enable you to find a hole in the defenses.
    Same for the Kaauri, I wouldn't expect one in SF to stall anything. With 4 of them being around next to Chaksa and Makaul HFTs and Smokes that's a different issue. Your opponent won't have enough troops in positions to pass several Kaauri and HFTs to get to the troops he wants to kill or the button he wants to push just like that. That's what spam does very well and 10 Order lists are incapable of achieving no matter what, board presence, overlapping close range ARO coverage and changing threats after each corner.
    A humble Foxtrott in positive rangebands handily outperforms a Spetznaz that can't reach the same firelane without serious Order investment.

    I'd call your list opportunistic with a plan. On the one hand you have the Sukeuls to clear firelanes in direct engagements, to kill the stuff your opponent throws in your face and you have to deal with sooner rather than later. On the other hand there are the Makauls preying on gaps, running and smoking across the board to do as much damage as possible.
    In between this many Orders and a bunch of Sensor as well as HFTs, even mass Camo should actually be quite manageable, I'm surprised you mention it as a problem.

    Some means of defense and an Order pool deep enough to stomach several losses are very important to have beyond the usual Sniper ARO pieces. A screen of Mines, Flashpulse bots, Warcors and expendable troops like Warbands has always higher priority for me than an obvious Sniper ARO piece that tries to lock down a corridor. Seems you're playing it the same way, have the other guy spend his orders to come to you and then struggle to chew his way through Makauls, Chaksas and Kaauri to waste some more, while at the same time willingly letting the Sukeuls die as expendable pawns, keeping the mission as only priority.

    Thanks for the writeup, interesting read.
     
    #39 Teslarod, Nov 9, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018 at 12:43 PM
    Thaddius, Abrilete and borings like this.