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MSV2 sniper poll

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by zapp, Jun 29, 2019.

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Do you think the addition of strong MSV2 sniper models to cheap core linkteams was a good decision?

Poll closed Jul 6, 2019.
  1. Yes

    41 vote(s)
    44.1%
  2. No

    52 vote(s)
    55.9%
  1. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I t
    I think the Kamau goes a bit beyond that though. There are other units that seem to more or less be faction auto includes (eg post humans) but they don't tend to change fundamentals of how the game is played (ie, change the broad viability of smoke, which several other factions have until now relied on). So basically the existance of some other units fundamentally affect how your own faction plays, but the Kamau fundamentally affects how your oppoents factions play. Thats a whole new level.

    Whether it ends up being a good thing in the end I guess we'll see.
     
    meikyoushisui likes this.
  2. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    I think that we have some talk about Jammer on an other hot topic point to Mutts being pretty much in the same boat.
    Smoke/White noise+Perimeters trick is also the kind of combo, even if underused because not known, is another thing absurdly powerful compared to what you pay. And I think that IMP troopers could have their ticket for the boat too.
    Chasseurs can change completely how you can navigate on a table depending if it is really dense or not. The addition of Scout minelayers with E/Mauler add another thick layer to this. New McMurrough is also a horror to deal with.

    I don't know for you but I could point at least one trooper for each faction/sectorial that forces me to adapt how I build my lists: Moran, Hecklers, ZC, Kamau, TO ML, IMP troopers, Mutts, Makaul and Pheroware, Chasseurs, Scouts, Achille, Scylla, Kuang Shis, Galwegian and Wallace...

    No need to be in FT to be a pain in the ass and autoinclude. In fact, the Kamau here is the only one who really need to be in FT to shine.
     
  3. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I'm not sure that is entirely true either. Lots of things like many of those you mentioned make you play around them, usually with what you have, which could be helped by tailoring your list but not as a necessity. Which is fortunate, because its difficult and generally a mistake to tailor vs 1 thing in an all comers environment IMHO.

    The Kamau's particular abilities (long range, ability to ignore typical ways to play around things - MSV seeing through smoke / negating mods, amazing shooting stats, ssl2, shock immunity) specifically make it difficult to play around in that way if its owner doesnt want you to, or you do tailor your list specifically. Which a lot of people now feel the need to do. If lots of people feel the need to tailor vs one specific troop in an all comers environment like that, its a good indication it's stronger than other things, and possibly too strong.

    Now there are definately counters to it (like nimbus /stratuscloud / dazer / certain coordinated orders / brute enough brute force, attacks with sufficient redundancy to fail and try again etc). Whether these or others prove sufficient over time to blunt the effect sufficiently for good balance I dont know has been determined yet and we will see.

    But I think it's a good indicator of power creep, and I'm not convinced on balance that is good, or evenly balanced right now
     
  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I'm just going to remind people that, in the case of the Kamau MSR fireteam, "sufficient brute force" is a BS15 HRMC. No, not a BS14 HRMC. BS15. Not even smacking it around with Tariq/Khawrij FAT2 Spitfires in full link teams is 'sufficient brute force'(!)

    Yān Huǒ Invincibles - HMC vs. Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) - MULTI Sniper Rifle (Stun Mode) (16-32" range, both sides in cover, Kamau in full link team)

    Active Player

    36.12% Yān Huǒ Invincibles inflicts 1 or more wounds on Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) (Unconscious)
    11.01% Yān Huǒ Invincibles inflicts 2 or more wounds on Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) (Dead)

    Failures
    23.20% Neither player succeeds

    Reactive Player

    40.68% Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) hits Yān Huǒ Invincibles (Stunned)
    versus

    Szalamandra Squadron - HMC vs. Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) - MULTI Sniper Rifle (Stun Mode)
    (16-32" range, both sides in cover, Kamau in full link team)

    Active Player
    37.02% Szalamandra Squadron inflicts 1 or more wounds on Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) (Unconscious)
    11.99% Szalamandra Squadron inflicts 2 or more wounds on Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) (Dead)

    Failures
    40.78% Neither player succeeds

    Reactive Player
    22.20% Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) hits Szalamandra Squadron (Stunned)
    versus

    Dragoes - HMC vs. Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) - MULTI Sniper Rifle (Stun Mode) (16-32" range, both sides in cover, Kamau in full link team)

    Active Player
    40.47% Dragoes inflicts 1 or more wounds on Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) (Unconscious)
    14.57% Dragoes inflicts 2 or more wounds on Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) (Dead)

    Failures
    29.55% Neither player succeeds

    Reactive Player
    29.99% Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) hits Dragoes (Stunned)
    versus

    Tarik Mansuri - Spitfire vs. Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) - MULTI Sniper Rifle (Stun Mode) (16-32" range, both sides in full link teams and in cover)

    Active Player
    41.51% Tarik Mansuri inflicts 1 or more wounds on Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) (Unconscious)
    10.53% Tarik Mansuri inflicts 2 or more wounds on Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) (Dead)

    Failures
    17.83% Neither player succeeds

    Reactive Player
    40.66% Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) hits Tarik Mansuri (Stunned)

    When the biggest guns in the game are at low odds to KO that Kamau sniper with the full FT buff, that's a bit of an issue!
     
  5. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Yeah, like a BS16 B5 HI HMG starts to have better than even odds, luckily those are more common now. Or you can fight it less face on eg with an impersonator (sixth sense + good deployment blunts that a little and it's likely to trade a close to as expensive model anyway) or something (maybe cautious move a Su Jian up). But it can be hard to avoid it since it ignores the main tools for that, which makes it swingy.

    Importantly though, the requirement for very specialised tools specifically to deal with a Kamau (which some factions struggle more with) starts to make one of the key appeals of the game ("It's not your list it's you) less true. You need a specific list and the expertise to make it to not likely end up with a poor play experience. It's ok but maybe not great.
     
    #125 Hachiman Taro, Jul 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
    meikyoushisui and Mahtamori like this.
  6. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    That's when you have to try Tohaa's exotic equipment, like Nimbus Plus or Stratuscloud:

    Gao-Rael Spitfire through Nimbus Plus:

    Gao-Rael - Spitfire vs. Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) - MULTI Sniper Rifle
    Active Player
    38.99% Gao-Rael inflicts 1 or more wounds on Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) (Unconscious)
    8.89% Gao-Rael inflicts 2 or more wounds on Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) (Dead)

    Failures
    42.08% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    18.93% Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) inflicts 1 or more wounds on Gao-Rael (Symbiont Disabled)


    Draal Saboteur AP Marksman Rifle through Stratuscloud:

    Draal Saboteurs - AP Marksman Rifle vs. Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) - MULTI Sniper Rifle
    Active Player
    39.03% Draal Saboteurs inflicts 1 or more wounds on Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) (Unconscious)
    10.55% Draal Saboteurs inflicts 2 or more wounds on Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) (Dead)

    Failures
    36.29% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    24.68% Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) inflicts 1 or more wounds on Draal Saboteurs (Symbiont Disabled)


    Just gettind rid of the Burst modifier helps a lot.
     
    ChoTimberwolf likes this.
  7. Skaldur

    Skaldur Active Member

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    In my opinion, you don't need specialised tools to take out the linked Kamau, if you absolutely have to kill it and can't avoid it the most effective method is hitting it with a direct template weapon - mines and chain rifles are plentiful across most factions. Even if the Kamau successfully dodges, hopefully it will go prone allowing you to move out your other units.

    The trick is getting close enough to use the template. It can be tough, but IMO if the linked kamau can be set a up in a spot that is completely impossible to approach through cover from all directions, and can dominate all the important parts of the table - then you probably aren't playing on a fair table set up.

    Certain factions do have more order-efficient template delivery systems. IMO, the humble USAriadna grunt is one of the best, able to lay down a heavy flamer on the Kamau using just a single order if you get first turn, and pass the inferior infiltration roll (you probably want several in your list to reliably get one in the right place). Drop troops with template weapons and infiltrators with marker state and mines are also good options.

    Overall, I'm neutral about whether adding MSV2 links to the game was a good idea. It certainly made AROs stronger for the factions that have it.
     
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Not if you're trying to sell a new sectorial.

    Though, in my opinion, getting rid of the Jammers would be the best way to nerf VIRD, since it would nerf their ability to keep people from trying oblique tactics against that fireteam.
     
    Abrilete likes this.
  9. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    The poll is closed since saturday and I thank you all for your participation. The result was closer than I did expect. But the reason of polls is to challenge your perception of things in the game.
    ~90 votes is of course not enough to have representative results, but it is an indication for the active forum users.
     
  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Oh, and what patronizing "teachable moment" did you have in mind?
     
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  11. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    That about 45% of the voters did not see MSV2 sniper as a bad addition or actually like them.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  12. Click2kill

    Click2kill Well-Known Member

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    I think the MSV2 sniper in FTs is strong and needs to be a threat assessed when on the board, but I don't think its game breaking. I think stuff like Fatality Lv 2 in a link team is much stronger.
     
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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Without differentiating between the Kamau MSR and the rest of them, that's pointless and possibly intentionally deceptive.
     
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  14. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Seconding this. The Haidao really doesn't bug me at all, but the Kamau is probably not great for the game altogether.
     
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  15. SpectralOwl

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    Come on, we all know the real problem piece here is the Yaogat.

    But yeah, the Kamau does go a bit too far for most Vanilla gunners to fight fairly. Not every faction has something like a Core-linked MSV1+ SWC weapon lying around to take it down, and I'd be feeling sketchy challenging it with the Bolt or Briscard Snipers even in a full link. That's just a bit too good for 4 Fusiliers and 1 mid-cost gunner if you ask me.
     
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  16. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Why is it you feel that is the more relevant statistic rather than the majority of respondents responding that strong MSV2 snipers in cheap core link teams was not a good decision?

    Because you expected much less than 45% to think it was good?
     
    #136 Hachiman Taro, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  17. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    To sum up this thread: Don't play JSA.
     
  18. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    Wrong

    Yes
     
  19. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    I havent played against the kamau yet.
    But so far I had never a problem with core links
     
  20. melkiach

    melkiach Well-Known Member

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    @ChoTimberwolf makauls greanades and kriigel smelly tactics helps you a lot :D
     
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