You're being repetitive yourself. I still haven't seen any examples from you showing it's even possible to make tables such as you claim are "good". Not that I can think of any other unit that's nearly as problematic as the Kamau in a Fireteam, so why should we be designing tables specifically around a single unit again? Unlike all other ARO pieces (except a buffed Q Drone, come think of it a buffed Q Drone is the epitome of an asshole unit, but we can smoke it or out range it most of the time).
Nice try, but you're the one asserting that the Kamau is an insurmountable problem, I (and others) have simply pointed to commonly taken units that can be used to negate that problem (some even through brute force if that's your poison). Your transparent attempt to entrap by demanding table design examples is frankly unworthy of response. You know every table is different, you know making use of each table's peculiarities and features is a fundamental skill, you also know what crap tables look like (or should if you've played more than a handful of games), and you know that "urban table" is not an excuse to avoid using the terrain rules.
You should have a look at the tables we had in the Merovingian Satellite. There were some where a Kamau Sniper would have been easily avoidable or with inbuilt terrain like Jungle (with Sat zone coming with)... I think that the Kamau sniper in VIRD exacerbate defaults of some tables that were at the borderline to playable before. And the MSV2 mimetism in FT was known to come one day as Nisses are a thing since the old days of PanO. They might become even one of the best attack piece once linked. One good trick to negate a good tower to kamaus is to put the tower with the DZ cutting the roof in two and with the cover outside of the DZ. So, the Kamau won't get a perfect positioning and then will force decision making. Or make the cover high enough for S3/S4 REMs but not for S2 troopers. Not for all the buildings, just those proposing perfect LoF for long range ARO weapons. And for Haqq and Ariadna, the best way to deal with VIRD is to wait the opponent moving and kill everything going out of the DZ by ambush and outmanoeuvering attacks against those wandering troopers. A single Tuareg can tear apart the whole Haris trying to make the scenario with his shotgun and still stay alive thanks to his TO camo because ORCs are rarely used. And Ariadna has a lot of tools too. I would be even more worried for USAriadna than for CHA and Merovingia.
I actually don't know what a you mean with a "crap table", which is why I'm asking for examples. The only crap designs I can think of are those that vastly deviates from CB's recommendations of 9 large and 6 small buildings (which clearly shows tables that would give a sniper a distinct advantage). Around here the norm is strongly leaning towards "too dense" and it's always possible for the Kamau to dominate gameplay (which is not the same as dominate the entire table). To me it sounds like you're recommending tables that's excessively too densely populated, particularly outside the deployment zones, so it really does sound like you're justifying Kamau's reactive turn advantage by demanding we create a large number of issues for the rest of the game.
@Mahtamori Could you provide some examples of those tables still dominated while concidered as too dense? Sometimes, it is just the placement of the buildings that is not good, not the sheer number. A friend of mine and I tend to make shitty tables when we do them to hastily and we use 3 scenery sets of operation boxes.
[voted yes] Voted "yes" as per the actual topic was about MSV2 snipers in cheap cores in general, as opposed to just the Kamau. But we all know the model on trial here is the Kamau MSV so let's go with that. Look the Kamau MSV is a bitch to fight no doubt about it. She's vicious cost-efficient, hits like a truck, has 20/20 vision and has a bunch of 10 point cheerleaders (who unlike their Zhanshi counterparts don't have the CC tax) boosting her firepower into the stratus-sphere. Moreover, she is easy to use and on her initial release - was undeniably strong. Ofc - there are counters to her - but I think the annoyance of her is that for such a relatively small investment of orders (just stick her on the greediest ARO spot you have) and points - she has the ability to just completely take over the game. But it's not just her - it's also because she lives in a sectorial that just on the whole is very strong both in the reactive and active turns. She lives in a sectorial that prior to Spiral had the only camo neuoricintic models in the game. She lives in a sectorial with the stealthed Jammers and the absolutely busted combo of BS10 B3 through Nimbus (seriously - I don't know why people whinge as much about the Kamua MSV - it's the Zulu Sensor Triangulated fire through Nimbus that's the filth part of Varuna. What other model in the game can say "Nah idc your visual mods. I shoot you on 10s and you shoot me on at least a -6"). The reason people are frustrated with Varuna is that they do a very strong reactive turn for next to zero order expenditure and do it on a budget. They just place down the models - and they're good to go and affect the game. Personally. I think many people would be a lot happier if the Kamau wasn't linkable with Fusilers and could only link between themselves with other Kamaus and Orcs. Then it would mean that you've got to be more selective about what pieces you take since you're coping an additional 5-6 points on the other cheerleaders. Of course there are counters - and it's part of why I voted yes. You can just not shoot her. You can spec fire the unlinked support infrastructure like Sniffer REMs and Doctors. You can muddle up the midfield with podes, AP and E/M mines and flamers to make it hell for the Crocs, Patsy Haris and Zulus that actually win the bloody game. Sure the Kamau MSV2 was the final nail in the coffin for the dipshit dual spets cookie-cutter ariadna list - but was that really a bad thing? I don't think so. People taking dual spets just made us lazy. Every solution was "I'll shoot it with my BS15 effective mimetism hmg". By taking dual spets, you killed your ability to take more interesting pieces. You killed your ability to solve difficult problems with alternative solutions - because you sacrificed so much to take dual spets. The Kamau was a wake-up call. It's a model that punishes you for shooting at it, so it forced you to engage with other problem-solving aspects of the game other than just shooting. That's why it's not a bad thing. I get why people are pissed at it. However - I truly believe that in a year or so, the Kamau MSV2 will be in the same "boogeyman" place that TR bots and TO snipers where in when we all started playing the game. As the game evolves and we get more comfortable with alternative problem-solving skills - it won't be as dominant as it was on its release. HOWEVER HOWEVER HOWEVER - My honest concern with the game is that we're seeing a gradual arms race - where the new sectorials/releases offer easy solutions to the old ones. Let me give you some examples. The Ryuken-9s with SMGs + X-visors were assholes to fight b/c again - they punished you for shooting at them since they imposed a -12 on suppressive. Moreover, they were released into a meta that did not have a heavy proliferation of MSV2. It was an incredibly strong piece on a flagship sectorial that drew in a lot of new players into many LGS. Then - you got Varuna. Not only did you have the Kamua MSV2 wildcard core link, but you also had the best triangulated fire platform in the game. Both of these are Ryuken 9/"idc visual mods" killers. Now - the prevalent (mind you I'm not saying best) strategy is to go second with the most vicious wildcard ARO link you've got. Fine. However - now in Daedlus Falls - you've got widespread proliferation of player-controlled Saturation Zones amongst all the new flagship army box releases (Spiral Core + SEF). Dazer's kill the wildcard ARO meta because they cut that Kamau's reactive fire in half. Suddenly, that vaunted Kamau piece is food for a 3x Noctiifer CO ML strike through a dazer field. It's food for a Spiral Corps Draal Agent with a Symbiomate (so he gets to lose at least one fight for free) shooting through his own Stratuscloud. There's nothing wrong with adding new toys and rules to a game. It keeps it fresh (unless it encroaches on rules bloat - which is it's own thing...) and interesting. However - the most obvious counters to "last week's greatest hit" shouldn't always be tied to "this week's newest-er and greatest-er hit". Without naming names - that's a place none of us want Infinity to go to. Anyway that's my two cents. The kamau msv is like a lot of other things - it is just what it is.
For reference (I think): https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/merovingian-satellite-ii-paris-hell.25980/ I despise the large terrain zones from Tagline missions, as it artificially creates terrain with no real sense of reason. We do play with far too few terrain rules, particularly low and poor visibility, but they should also make sense. Holographic panels*, densely planted green spaces, etc, are good examples that I hope we'll get into our meta more. As for the ones in the satellite, I could only spot one (the large boat cutting the table in half) that would potentially make the Kamau less dominant, but that depends entirely on where the mission puts objectives. I don't have any pictures on hand, but comparing to the tournament suggested that I think I linked above, Table 09 is the closest representative to our tables while the Caribbean table with the beached boat is perhaps on the cluttered side. The table with the corridors is similar to one of my prototype tables, but with far fewer lines of fire than I have - I got criticism that it funnelled units into largely two specific passages that meant it was too easy to set up movement obstacles using Jammers, Hackers and strong ARO pieces like Kamau, TR HMG, Helots or cheap chain rifles. Over all, Merovingia seem to have boards that are more open than I am used to playing on, though we do have boards that are more open than Mero's "average" simply because terrain hauling can be difficult at times. P.s. at our last tournament some discussed during lunch how, for many units, MSV seems to be a kind of costly deal, to which I suggested we should probably use more terrain features that allows particularly MSV1 units to shine a bit more. * I know the rulebook recommends treating them like solid terrain, but I'm inclined to think poor visibility is a better fit thematically and for the sake of getting terrain on the board.
I agree and look forward to when effective means of handling them without specifically list-tailoring for a single unit is widely available across nearly all factions - when Nimbus grenades are happy-little-accident already included, when albedo has spread to more factions, and when eclipse and white noise isn't the privilege of basically three factions.
^ I agree. The "easy counters" shouldn't be so limited in availability - nor should they be so linked to newer releases like the SEF and Spiral. There are counters to wildcard links like CO/spec fire that are available to all armies - but it's this arms race trend that worries me the most. Also as someone who is very much looking forward to SEF - I am fully aware of the irony. It's the Caliban's dreads that sucked me in.
This is an excellent post on the topic IMHO, it expresses a lot well that I find true, even though I voted the opposite way in the poll.
I don't think table wide terrain zones is good idea too. Those just make standard MI without terrain skills the worst unit in the game while any LI is at home. As for the tables of the satellite, you don't know the particular rules that of each tables but, for example, Varuna one forbid deployment on the rocks and on the roofs of the tall buildings. Balconies are accessible though. The first table of Championnet has all the cut walls standing for infinity height and it is the same for the Paradiso one, in addition to black areas being forbidden. All of those tables aren't perfect, we made some feedback about it but there were a lot of them where a Kamau you could fight VIRD without feeling fighting uphill. I think the first from Championnet is the best "close range" table I had opportunity to play on so far, with the labyrintic one of Interplanetario. You have rooms, tight and wide corridors and a whole large band representing a quarter of the table where HMGs and TAGs can operate without fearing to get hacked at every activation. Some were too open, some looked too open but were in fact nicely adjusted so that LoF weren't that huge. And I second on the terrain hauling. That's the problem with nice looking tables, they are sometimes painful to play on. I definitely suggest to consider it. When I started the game, the Paris community was playing on the same type of tables you're playing on, without terrain. Then, I switched from NCA to ASA after 9 months and @Sedral and I decided to try some jungle terrain to have some Paradiso feeling and to test how ASA is performing at home. And we found out that it was in fact pretty good and started to suggest to have some on our tables with the other Infinity players. It wasn't popular at first, mostly because of the saturation zones and how FT are affected by them in reactive but it finally made its way and while there isn't a terrain zone on every table, you cand find some and they can change the game if you came unprepared for them (SP is deadly on jungle terrains if the opponent thought that MSVs don't worth to be brought). If MSV2 snipers are a such pain in your meta, White noise natural zones can help it.
Yup, they're pretty much trash and it's a problem that Infinity has that as an example of terrain in missions.
As long as you're dreaming, would you like a Ferrari? The problem is that CB is terrible at updating released sectorials. So while the newest sectorial in that faction and the vanilla versions may get to be competitive eventually, that leaves all the older sectorials hanging in the breeze. Not to mention NA2 forces.
Looking through this thread Table 09 is closest to what my LGS tries to put together for maps in terms of density. Better hope no one has infiltrating TO snipers on that Table 02 though holy hell.
As said above, top roofs of each building are forbidden as well as the two big rocks on the beach. You can still use balconies and windows but you can't see the whole table at all from there. This makes this table pretty great to play on because there is a lot way to navigate on it.
Part of the problem with "Saturation Zones solve the Kamau MSR problem" is that it hits other fireteam aro pieces even harder.
Maybe you should change your listbuilding if those defensive FT are useless with saturation. Use more solo ARO pieces and make your FT more aggressive? Note that TR bots and Neurocinetic units are also less frightening.
Can you come up with anything in the game that has as big of an impact for the cost? The fact people in this thread are discussing it the way they are makes it pretty clear the buy-in is too low. I'm a PanO player btw. Can you show me VIRD lists that can't be improved by its inclusion? That's the ultimate touchstone of wonky internal balance.
