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MSV2 in vanilla: Khawarij vs Mukhtar

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by Hackingslam, Oct 28, 2020.

  1. Hackingslam

    Hackingslam Member

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    Thinking about these two profiles and curious about everyone else’s thoughts. Please also note that I’m talking about their effectiveness in Vanilla.

    Khawarij primary advantages:
    1. DAM16 shooting is probably deadlier than an extra die against higher-ARM targets. (I have not run the numbers)
    2. NCO is a big deal. We have plenty of flimsy LTs whose LT orders are safer spent elsewhere.
    3. +1” dodge, NBW, PH13 and CC22 gives the Khawarij an interesting threat (and threat range) against troops with crappy CC and/or direct template weapons. Being CC and Dodge, it’s equally relevant on the reactive turn.

    Mukhtar primary advantages:
    1. Significantly better mobility. +4” deployment frees up your deployment zone and opens your placement options. 6-2 also lets you burn rubber and spray ammo around the table in general.
    2. Significantly better survivability. Mimetism and two wounds makes the Mukhtar more resilient on both turns in comparison to the Khawarij. Despite the Khawarij’s template defense, the Mukhtar still defends better against templates by virtue of having an extra wound and a Nanopulser ARO to (potentially) prevent the attacker from trying again.
    3. Probably better ranged offense. The Red Fury’s extra burst is almost certainly putting in more work than the extra 3 damage that the Khawarij’s Mk12 does, at least until armour starts stacking up. Worst case scenario, mimetism and an extra wound makes it safer to try again against modt targets.
    4. Burst2 template! The Mukhtar has a pretty nasty 2 saves that it can more or less force on camo tokens and remotes on any order where it gets close.

    Considerations that feel more significant than they are:
    1. the Khawarij’s CC prowess is mostly a reactive turn benefit. It negates CC but rolls one die. The extra crit chance is nice but flanking Mk12 with +1 Damage has 3 chances to hit harder against everything but ARM6+. NBW doesn’t compare particularly well to an extra wound when it’s being ignored by Berserk, too.
    2. The Khawarij’s +1” dodge is fairly
    3. I really don’t think Superjump on a flimsy 4-4 gunnery troop is any good in this edition. The biggest nerf is the lack of (no-damage) falling. Jumping down from elevation gave troops like the Khawarij order-efficient descent from safe rooftops or no-longer-useful vantage points, and that’s gone. The improved functionality of elevation as cover also makes jumping to shoot a worse prospect.
    4. The Mukhtar is 2 points less, but 1SWC more. Pzfaust daylamis on rooftops (or even boxes!) are an excellent, easy, low-investment long-range defense, and they’re 0SWC now. That and other SWC reductions make it genuinely difficult to fill out SWC in effective Vanilla Haqq. So the 1SWC really isn’t a big deal.
    5. NWI+Shock Immune is a sidegrade to “actually” having two wounds. You’re trading an unconscious state for the ability to return to 2 Wounds when Doctored. This might matter less for factions with fewer Doctors. I don’t know if NWI is cheaper than two wounds, but if it is, that’s in the Mukhtar’s favour anyway, thanks to it being best used on your opponent’s side of the table.

    My overall impression is in Vanilla, you’re picking between an extra order and a more effective unit. But those are my thoughts, and I haven’t found an N4 dice calculator. I’m happy to hear your own!
     
    #1 Hackingslam, Oct 28, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2020
    theGricks likes this.
  2. theGricks

    theGricks Well-Known Member

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    I will follow this thread with great curiosity. I honestly dont know which would be better in what situations as the Red Fury Damage is so low, but the additional dice and the mimetism stacking is really nice.
     
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  3. Fenrir

    Fenrir Well-Known Member

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    I tought about that for one part we got the khawarij NCO and for the other we got the mukhtar.

    All you said in this post its true. But its khawarij still worth? I don't think so for diferent reasons, all khawarij were buffed thats a fact but the points increase it's dissapointing because now a days the game got HI that cost 17 point like tankos or around 30 like wu mings or similar ones. So we are paying 38 points for MSV2 to deal damage 16 with a CC acceptable. The super-jump rule is in a bad position right now, maybe if khawarij move 6-2 could be usefull but with the 10-10 falls short in RTF we can't still jump and walk in mix links. It's a little bit disgusting the glass canon RTF it feels more than ever. In conclusion khawarij are expensive at my vision, in my opinion they need a point reduction like 4-5 points all profiles.

    In the other hand we got mukthar they are our change to fight with MVS2 and mimetisn -3 the only downside is that they have red fury that we can't handle HI or tags with them, and as I said the game have lots of cheap HI they survive quite easily with this damage.

    I prefer Mukthar over khawarij the 2 wounds the 6-2, forward deploy, nanopulser, mimetism, 4 rolls, and cheaper makes the difference over the CC and damage 13 or superjamp.

    Mukhtar is good I would play them for sure but I want to wait for Djanbazans with their HMG if they are balanced in points I will run them.
     
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  4. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I am also waiting for my Djanbazan HMG to come back, but the meantime I have leaned towards the Khawarij in Vanilla. They have the added resilience with bioimmunity and equivalent armor 3, which helps against crits.
     
  5. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    Why are we forced to choose?
     
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  6. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    I've been taking Yara Haddad. Massively cheaper than either, better suited than the Mukhtar to N4, more effective than both at short range thanks to highly effective range bands inside 8" where the enemy can't retaliate.
     
  7. sololobo

    sololobo Well-Known Member

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    This. Khawaij cost more than heavy infantry but are as fragile as light infantry. Mukhtar provide the body and mobility that we desire, but they are out fitted with sling shots in a heavy infantry meta shift. But hey, there’s Maggy with a sweet 360 visor and mine dispenser for 88 points. B)
     
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  8. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    Against a Squalo in cover:

    Mukhtar is 18% to wound, 12% to get wounded
    Khawarij is 26%-24%
    Yara is 30%-24%

    I guess it's not the best example since you wouldn't send any of them against a Squalo. The odds will of course be somewhat better against a lighter target. Still, I'm not sure any of them is worth sending to kill even an HI unless you can flank them out of cover.

    I haven't been playing Vanilla in N4, so I can only speculate, but I think my inclination would be to take the Mukhtar for midfield clearing, and something else to deal with HI and TAGs. Hackers, e/marat Mutts, e/m mines, CC, basically anything except trying to shoot through their armour.

    (Fun fact: I tried to run the numbers with a Jotum first, and realized it's literally impossible for a Mukhtar to wound a Jotum in cover.)
     
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  9. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    I'd be interested to see how that math changes engaging an enemy within 8" who's forced to dodge. Yara's firepower for that use case seems ideal, which makes me rate her pretty highly (in addition to her being cheaper than either).
     
  10. Tongfa

    Tongfa ULTRA INSTINCT UKR

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    There is no question that she is good, and adds a whole new tool to Hassassins. I'm just not sure if I like nearly every army/sectorial getting some form a linkable MSV shooter (even Kosmoflot). I liked how the low-tech fellas solved firepower problems with asymmetrical solutions. Having a BS13 (?) Haqq line infantry shooter with an x-ray eyes feels like a loss of identity.

    That said, yeah if I played Assassins, shamelessly slap her down every single match.
     
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  11. Sojourne

    Sojourne Irregular

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    Mukhtar for me. Forward deployment seals it. Used for hunting midfield camo tokens, not really for anything else heavier.
     
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  12. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    Against the dodging Squalo she's 21% to wound with her pistols, 47% if she can get it out of cover.

    Khawarij and Mukhtar won't have anything comparable in the 0-8 range. Khawa's CC isn't actually very good, it's 33%-23% in a CC fight with the Squalo.
     
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  13. Fenrir

    Fenrir Well-Known Member

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    So we can say that khawarij stays out of the equation. acceptable shooter, CC, and mobility but it doesn't have a specific function 38 points for 1 wound, not even worth.

    So we chose for muktar or yara both pretty well, we still take muktar for the red fury the 4 shoots are always good, nobody in haqqislam can shoot with MSV + mimetism or even mimetism (just kaplan spitfre) with 4 dice so it's good enoguht for 36 points. for the other hand damage 13 it's still low

    And yara she's so cheap, good shooter for that price.
     
  14. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    While we are at Yara: Can someone tell me where that profile comes from? Is it a new dire foes box? Defiance? Aristeia? ITS pack? Preorder from some book? Is there even a model for it?

    At this point i'm totally confused about all those character profiles in Infinity.
     
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  15. Aldo

    Aldo Spare 15

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    We've seen her concept art, but no model has been released yet.
     
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  16. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    She has a full fluff entry in the N4 book too.
     
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  17. HotFreshTofu

    HotFreshTofu Well-Known Member

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    The Mukhtar is invaluable . It is easily one of the best unit profiles in the entire faction. I think you take it over the Khawarij 100% of the time sadly . There are so many midfield light armored mimetism pieces that you can kill. Don’t shoot tags and HI with it. There are plenty of AP options now to compliment the mukhtar. I think mukhtar msv2 remains and autoinclude (nearly ) .

    yara is a good option as well for her low cost and AP.

    djanbazan will have a place when it comes back if it has 4-4 mov, arm3 and regeneration.
     
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  18. LoganGarnett

    LoganGarnett Well-Known Member

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    I'll always pick Khawarij over Mukhtar for MSV duty. It has wider range of targets it can hurt, and its vertical mobility has proven to be useful in many games, especially in Khawarij Haris.
     
  19. exiti

    exiti Mad Scientist Gorilla

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    I have found a use for both units in same list. I use Mukhtar Haris team for early securing of areas and objectives. I also use a Khawarij Mk12 in a core Ghulam team for AROs and securing areas in later turns. In particular, the Khawarij won me a game in tournament by bouncing across the board turn 3 to snag the Beacon in Capture and Protect.
     
  20. Hackingslam

    Hackingslam Member

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    Yara was an important thing to bring up in this discussion, thank you all for drawing attention to her. Still, I think she's an option rather than the better choice compared to the Mukhtar. She's like, two thirds of the price of either, but she's slower than both and roughly half as durable as the Mukhtar.

    I think I'm leaning on the Mukhtar for Vanilla. The NCO order for the Khawarij still feels important, but I don't think it's enough to outdo the rest of the Mukhtar's benefits. The Mk12 is low-burst and only 24" range, so it's a bad option for keeping in your deployment zone for maybe one or two orders a turn.