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MSV1 + Sixth Sense Firing through Smoke (N4)

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Hachiman Taro, Sep 25, 2020.

  1. jackfrost

    jackfrost Active Member

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    the -6 from smoke is only if you can't see the enemy right? and msv1 can see through smoke... sooo the -6 that you get from being shot at through smoke never comes into play at all so they will always be at -6 and sixth sense doesn't work on smoke in links with msv1.

    just like 6th sense doesn't do anything for msv2 models in links. I guess you guys are hoping for this not to be ruled on, but for it to be fixed because it would be really lame if msv1 troops basically lost access to this sixth sense ability.

    now how would you write the rules so they can benefit from 6th sense on defense, but don't get to use it on offense thus turning all msv1 link teams into pseudo msv2 models :D

    edit: also you'd have to write it in such a way so that msv1 models who are not in links don't get -12 when they get shot at through smoke hahahahahaha this is amazing!
     
    #21 jackfrost, Oct 9, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
  2. m2cat

    m2cat Active Member

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    ~skip~
     
    #22 m2cat, Oct 10, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2020
  3. Reece

    Reece EI Aspect
    Warcor

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    If we focus on "responding" we get some funky "BS Attack Chicken".

    Troop A and B are both models with Sixth Sense and MSV1 (easily found in links).

    Troop A (active) and Troop B see each other through Smoke. Troop A declares BS Attack and incurs the -6 penalty for firing with MSV1 through Smoke. Troop B "responds" with BS Attack and ignores the -6 penalty for firing with MSV1 through Smoke. The result: Troop A has -6 and Troop has -0.

    Troop A (active) and Troop B see each other through Smoke. Troop A declares Idle. Troop B declares BS Attack and incurs the -6 penalty for firing with MSV1 through Smoke. Troop A "responds" with BS Attack and ignores the -6 penalty for firing with MSV1 through Smoke. The result, Troop A has -0 and Troop has -6.

    This doesn't "feel" right to me. But I guess it's a benefit to models in the active turn. :|
     
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  4. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

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    This keeps coming back to the top so i am going to add my PoV. They are seperate penalties. The zero vis penalty applies -6 to shooting back only. The msv1 penalty applies a -6 to all skills requiring LoF, making it act like pseudo nimbus from n3. If your msv 1 trooper decides to dodge when the LoS is passing through smoke you are taking a -6. Completely separate from sixth sense.
     
  5. Jumara

    Jumara New Member

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    You dont need LoF to Dodge, so the -6 does not apply if it is triggered frome ZoC? It is getting ridiculous with all the implied interactions ;D
     
  6. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

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    except it does
    upload_2020-10-13_17-3-58.png
    or the more explained version
    upload_2020-10-13_17-4-38.png
    what is the most common way of getting an aro? Line of sight. if a troop moves up to my zone of control in smoke, an MSV1 troop still has line of site. causing the -6. if he comes up behind then i can do ZoC ARO dodge at -3.
     
  7. Blakhart

    Blakhart Member

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    MSV 1 says, "Additionally, it allows the user to draw LoF through Zero Visibility Zones, applying a -6 MOD to any Skill that requires LoF."

    So would that negate the Sixth Sense rule, "Allows the user to respond to Attacks (and only Attacks) directed at them by enemies outside their LoF."?

    Meaning that would have to take the MSV's -6?
     
    #27 Blakhart, Oct 14, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
  8. BULLETEER v.42

    BULLETEER v.42 New Member

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    1 - Rule wording ARO
    2 - Multispectral visor v1.
    3 - Six Sense
    4 - Visibility Condition
    5 - Automatic Skills


    If the opponent chooses to attack, then "Six Sense" allows you to ignore the -6 modifier for an attack through the "Zero Visibility Zone" and you do not need to use the "Multispectral visor v1"rule.
    In other words, the "Multispectral visor v1" gets -6 if the opponent does not shoot at all, but declares another action, for example: Move+dodge, Because of rule - Automatic Skills - you "can" use it. Or not.
     

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  9. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    msv is obligatory. so you cannot chose to not use msv to see through the smoke and thus allow sixth sense to kick in.
     
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  10. BULLETEER v.42

    BULLETEER v.42 New Member

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    Okay, true.
    But - when you get ARO through zero visibility zone? - You are a target of BS attack and got LoF to target, so you can respond at -6 mod, right?
    Msv1 already has LoF to target, and already have -6 mod, which is negated by Six Sense rule on FTF, because attack from zero visibility zone.
     
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  11. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    I suppose the only important ruling is the what does "-6 mod for responding with a bs attack" in bullet point 3 of sixth sense mean?

    Does this mean that its just a ftf with both individuals doing bs attacks? Does this mean firing through smoke where you would otherwise not be allowed to but can due to they fired first as per the rules of smoke grenades but provides a -6 mod? I believe it is the latter, but I can absolutely understand people's opinion it is the former.

    My belief it is the later is because if it is referring to any -6 mod that you get from responding with a bs attack, then it would be a fine line to explain that it could ignore the -6 mod from the stronger mimitism, which doesn't make sense to me.
     
  12. BULLETEER v.42

    BULLETEER v.42 New Member

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    In "visibility condition" says - ► Zero Visibility Zone:
    ► Troopers cannot draw LoF through a Zero Visibility Zone.
    Any Trooper who is the target of a BS Attack into, through, or out of a Zero Visibility Zone may respond to the attacker, provided the Trooper is facing the attacker. With mod -6 for Zero visibility Zone.

    MSV 1 says - Additionally, it allows the user to draw LoF through Zero Visibility Zones, applying a -6 MOD to any Skill that requires LoF.
    which is interpreted as: "I don't have to wait for someone to shoot me. I have a LoF to the target." but rules Zero Visibility Zone still apply (MOD -6).

    Six Sense says - if the user is the target of a BS Attack through a Zero Visibility Zone, they ignore the -6 MOD for responding with a BS Attack.

    it doesn't say what moment is taken - whether you had a LOF or not. You became the target of the attack, Six Sense is triggered. A clear modifier for Zero visibility zone is specified here.

    Maybe by adding a few words, it would be easier for players to understand what the authors wanted to say, but in General, everything is quite obvious to me.
     
  13. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    Folks, just a reminder that ijw has already said that the MSV1/Smoke/Sixth Sense interaction needs a ruling from CB.

    I mean, argue about it as much as you like, just remember this is a case where the arguments aren't going to lead to a conclusion.
     
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  14. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    That's the simplified version from the intro mission, not the actual rules. :-(
     
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  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The problem really is there is no good way to rule this for CB. Either way winds up with a retarded interaction.

    If they say no penalties for sixth sense, then the trooper apparently only turns the visor on correctly in ARO and fires like shit in active which feels counter intuitive and stupid.

    If they say penalties apply then the trooper makes more consistent sense when dealing with smoke, but when someone throws superior eclipse (or white noise) that he can't actually see through he suddenly gets better at shooting than when faced with a vis zone he can see through.

    A local player mentioned maybe they're just gonna leave this and hope it doesn't cause too many problems then when they update the fireteam rules they're going to pull Sixth Sense off fireteam bonuses and this problem disappears.
     
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  16. Reece

    Reece EI Aspect
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    I don't think those are the only options. I feel like they can just have the best of both IMO. It makes MSV1 REALLY strong, but only on a Sixth Sense Troop.

    I'm also hoping for new Fireteam bonuses and maybe getting them dialed back a little.
     
  17. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    My gut says we’ve got at least a year’s wait before any fireteam changes roll out.
     
  18. Reece

    Reece EI Aspect
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    This we'll get a ruling on this earlier? ;)
     
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  19. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    As far as I know, the promise of quarterly FAQ updates still stands.
     
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  20. N0rdicNinja

    N0rdicNinja New Member

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    Just curious if there's been any word on this outside of this thread? Or should we just wait for the quarterly FAQ? Thanks!
     
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