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Morat agression force. Whyyyyyyyy

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by Wonderman1st, Oct 4, 2020.

  1. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Most of it is up-thread already, but here it is again, all in one place.

    In N3, Dāturazi chose between +3/-3, or B2. B2 was a bit better against targets with low CC but not massively, and with an increased risk to the Dāturazi. +3/-3 was a noticeably better option against targets with CC over 20 due to the increased Crit chance and due to adding the amount over 20 to the die roll, while deny the opponent the chance to do that as much.

    So B2 wasn’t that big a deal.
    In N4, they are getting +3/-3, and +3 PH for Damage.
    In N4, they gained +2 CC and were at a high enough point for that to matter, because of already being over 20.
    In N4, the basic Dāturazi swapped from an AP CCW to a DA CCW.

    So your basic option is now attacking on CC26 (35% chance of critting, and adding 6 to their die roll for a minimum result of 7), and imposing a -3 MOD in FtF Rolls, and hitting with a Dam17 DA CCW.

    They’re nearly twice as likely to Crit, and a Crit is now going to be three Saving Rolls against Dam17, instead of one auto-wound. Even an Avatar or Jotum is likely to fail one of those, putting you on as good a result with the Crit as in N3, but against anything with non-TAG Armour values you’re probably going to do 2W. Against ARM4 the Crit is on about 70% of causing at least 2W, and about 30% chance of causing 3W.

    But the real kicker is all the non-critting hits. In N3, that was a Dam14 AP hit, maybe two if you used B2 and got lucky. Now it’s a Dam17 DA hit, which has about 40% chance of doing 2W to a target with ARM4, and about 50% if they’ve got ARM3.

    The damage output of the basic option has gone through the roof, at the same time as being much more likely to win the roll.

    And all of that is without considering the extra options that N4 Berserk gives you, particularly against low-ARM enemy CC Specialists like Shinobu, who will get annihilated by a 14pt Trooper.
     
    #101 ijw, Oct 6, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2020
  2. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Thanks for the analysis @ijw. Personal life continues to get in the way, but I’ll try again this coming weekend to get at least a bare-bones N4 dice calc out there.
     
  3. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Bah, internet issues dumped on me when I tried to post about this.

    The Datz is better at CC in a vacuum, but game-wide we've seen CC boosts for almost everyone, and quite critically a huge shift in the power of MA2 models so that they are very close to an MA4 model in abilities.

    I admit though, missed the +2 CC and the DA CCW. When I plugged them into the N3 dice calculator, that calculator capped at 22 CC not 23 CC and still had better odds of a new Datz against a random Fusilier than the old one with B2 (4% of getting punked vs 6%)

    Seems like the Datz did get better at smashing weak guys. I think +3/-3 was already better for strong guys so should be the same there. The sticking point is on random guys getting like +4 CC and on MA2 guys. But generally I'd agree that they are better at CC now and double chain or berserk means they generally just trade with those MA2 guys which is probably a good deal too.

    When you combine that with the general buff to impetuous rules (ignoring the confusion and shenanigans for them atm) makes Datz a hell of a deal for 14 points. If vanilla CA ever needs more cheerleaders after its six remotes, I don't think any of the line troops are gonna see play when you can get this for the same price.
     
  4. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Daturazi bring a lot of utility, and I have always found them to be worth their cost, ever since I started playing in N2. N4 has given several buffs to “cheap” troops in CA rather than cut their costs, and I’m pretty happy with all of them.
     
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  5. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Few MA2 units gained any CC increase, though, which still leaves the Dāturazi comparatively better off due to +2 base*, and the extra Damage. And most of the units that gained +4 or similar bumps are still under 20 without MA2, and are therefore pretty much irrelevant unless they’re trying to beat up Fusilier Angus. A Dāturazi will still smash them to pieces reliably in a FtF Roll, maybe dropping from 90% to wound them to 80% to wound them.

    *EDIT because once Attribute values are over 20, they don’t improve linearly!
     
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  6. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Also, there's one very, very important point when discussing other MA units:

    Unless they have natural born warrior, daturazi can usually just trade with them. And at 14 points, these guys will be trading up against most other models. I would gladly let a Dat die to cause 1-2 wounds on any HI, or one of the many NWI+Shock immunity snowflakes we have now.

    Hell, I won a game doing just that with Krakots, and Krakots are nowhere close to the beasts Daturazi are now.
     
  7. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Dats are big beneficiaries to the impetuous changes too.
     
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  8. Hiereth

    Hiereth AI Artichoke

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    Better yet, NBW doesn't appear to cancel anything except Martial Arts, so they couldn't stop you from beserking.
     
    #108 Hiereth, Oct 7, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
  9. Smooth Criminal

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    Morats in N4 from a few games that I played.

    The good:
    - suryat. Our new hard carry. The msv1 missile profile is our best long range aro piece in 5 man link and a solid long range attacker. The hmg one is just very good attacker. Every faction seems to be getting mixed heavy+chaff links so we'll see if Veteran+Ap immune is good enough to set ours apart. Haven't tried the core suryat link yet.
    - rodoks. Still good, our best ape for winning f2f in 5 man link. Decent aro piece.
    - daturazi. New frenzy rules make them a good filler regular order since our other options suck in that department.
    - raktoraks and kornak. The wildcard monkey boys that give you free 3 man with any of the previous entries. Kornak carries 2 orders to use on the attacker and is a good mid range attacker himself.
    - links in general. Almost everything in morat is linkable so with the wildcard boys you can always guarantee at least some bonuses for your stuff until you run out of CPs.
    - qdrone. Slap a marksmanship on it and it's both great aro and attacking piece. Still good without paying the opportunity cost of evo.
    - zerat. Red fury is good rambo attacker and an aro piece with a use of CP. Minelayer is probably our best options for midfield slowdown. Sniper is a bit weaker than suryat/rodok/qdrone aro options but she doesn't need a link around.
    - raicho. The brass monkey is the best solo rambo option. Getting close and blasting stuff with +1 dam directs while facetanking the opposition is probably better than fighting linked aro pieces with mimetism in f2f.
    - rasyat. Para (deploy) is good.
    - taryot??? If I'm reading the rules correctly you pay 22 to put a 13 damage pie plate anywhere on the table on a roll of 12- (with an evo). Seems good given lack of morat forward options. Sadly no models = no tournament play.
    - veteran rule. Oblivion b2 and b3 is a real thing that we give no damn about.


    The bad:
    - vanguards. Have no abilities to accomplish any task well, only useful as link filler specialists, wip 13 is decent. Bad regular order filler due to cost.
    - lack of solid order filler in general. We have 3 bots and then the next cheapest option is daturazi/vanguard so you're kinda forced into taking daturazi at some point.
    - yaogat. No matter how strong the B3 sniper shooting is you pay 35 for a dude with 1 wound, one bad roll and he's out. Msv suryat also costs 35 and has cheaper link filler. I assume some matchups out there will require msv2 specifically but nothing comes to mind right away. Should have a special link with vanguard or something.
    - engineers. Why would you ever use them? The autocannon profile costs same as rodok with hmg. The engineer ability is only relevant for qdrone/tag and you better take worm for those. They are just slightly better vanguards, should be around 18 points tbh. Or get a forward deployment to work according to lore.
    - sogarat. No idea why would you take him when you can take a linked suryat that has same BS and is better against AP. Or go full Raicho and embrace the rambo. I guess he can be your rambo lieutenant? But suryat can do that with an order on top. I guess he can delete armored targets from afar? But you can just pay a bit more and get a Raicho for that. Can we get a haris here? Or tactical awareness?
    - krakot. Got downgrade from frenzy (without cost compensation), strictly worse daturazi now. Forward deploy is kinda unique but everything else is just bad. I assume they are good with Mommydrat since they will drop the impetuous nonsense and become good midfield pieces, but she has model availability problems, ape mommy is hard to get. Should be able to make duo with themselves or get cheaper.
    - berserk rule in general. Sounds cool on paper but in practice how often do you start your order in los of the conscious enemy model within 8 of you? It also breaks the user out of the link. Can you even use berserk mode without the full order? If not that's a big downgrade.


    The ugly hungry bugs:
    What is up with the hungry link? I can't use the hungry orders on themselves without them breaking the link? I understand the intent of order battery removal but can we at least let them use their orders like tactical awareness ones? Kuangshi are 5pt and regular by the way, glory to Great CyberChina I guess.
    Why does oznat cost more than daturazi while having strictly weaker profile?


    As far as lists go seems like you always take at least 2 links, have raktoraks/kornak to flip between links, 3 filler bots and either zerat or rasyat to harass cheerleaders. Suryat rocket, qdrone, rodok hmg go on aro duty and zerat/renegades midfield. Evo only if you want to drop, suryats and tag already have firewalls that don't stack with evo.

    Overall not much changed overall with monkeys themselves but the meta changed around them greatly. 15 orders are better for faction where the cheapest spammable regular costs 14, the shotgun changes lead to more straight up arm contests instead of f2f and we have arm to win those and fire spewing shotguns to force multiple checks.
     
  10. Wonderman1st

    Wonderman1st Member

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    i just want to stop my "whine" for a second - daturazi does not have stealth. is it bug or a feature?
    @ijv
     
    #110 Wonderman1st, Oct 7, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
  11. Wonderman1st

    Wonderman1st Member

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    Smooth criminal - i agree almost on everything except rodoks -without wildcards with daside abilities inside - it is rather overpriced=)
     
  12. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Can't argue with that, although you left out the fact that if you use Sogorats you're probably a cool person IRL.
     
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  13. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Welcome to the forum!

    The Yaogat Sniper doesnt need to be in a Fireteam at all to perform well, so it’s not a like-for-like comparison, and the Yaogat shoots through Smoke much better. And MAF has some of the most reliable Smoke access in the game. Also, why not both?

    Again, why is it either/or? With the changes to SWC it’s pretty easy to fit a Sogarat and a linked Suryat in the same list, where the extra 17pt or so to use a Raicho might be harder to fit in. Also, even with the Raicho’s ECM: Hacker, it’s still more of a risk against good Hacking opponents than a Sogarat as a Sogarat can’t be Possessed and used against you.

    This is one of the many uses of Active Turn Dodge movement, which doesn’t trigger new AROs. With the first Order you move up to the corner or up within Smoke etc, then declare Dodge. If the Dāturazi (because that’s the unit it’s most likely to be used on) succeeds on PH14, they get to move 3” at the end of the Order, into LoF. With the following Order, use Berserk, or just a regular Move-CC Attack if they’re close enough and you want to Face to Face Roll.

    Although with a Krakot and the right MetaChemistry Roll to get PH16 it’s going to be more reliable, or 8-4 MOV to be able to Dodge 3” round the corner, then charge 12” with Berserk.

    As mentioned up-thread, the restriction on forming the Fireteam during deployment has also been lifted, so you can start with a defensive Fireteam, use the Hungries’ Impetuous and Irrregular Orders to move up, then form the Fireteam, without having lost either their Irregular Orders or their Impetuous Orders.
     
  14. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Almost all Warbands lost Stealth.
     
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  15. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    That's cool, it makes you notice and appreciate it on the ones that kept it!
     
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  16. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Just to expand on this for a moment.

    Ignoring Smoke, against a ‘TO/ODD Sniper’, which is likely to be more common as all the infiltrating Snipers got a substantial discount (including the Zerat). Assuming Cover on both sides, and that the Sniper is far enough forwards to be within 32”:

    Suryat with full Fireteam bonuses is on BS13 B3 (+6 for range and Fireteam, -6 for Cover and the remaining Mimetism), overall Damage of 14 due to templates ignoring Cover.
    Yaogat solo is on BS12 B3, overall Damage of 12 but DA ammo.

    I haven’t run the numbers on the differences for Saving Rolls, but I’d be surprised if the Suryat comes out ahead due to the Yaogat forcing nearly twice as many Saving Rolls.

    Where the Yaogat pulls ahead (a lot!) is when Smoke is involved, which is typically going to halve the BS of the return fire. Depending on the eventual ruling for MSV1 and Sixth Sense, the Suryat might be getting to ignore the -6 MOD for Smoke if the target fires back, but if they just Dodge out of sight the Suryat is going to be on BS7.

    Obviously if the enemy Sniper is outside 32” it’s going to be massively in favour of the Yaogat.
     
  17. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Arguably Daturazi “should have” kept it, since in N2, MA4 contained the precursor to N3’s stealth rule. Ah well, guess they left their quiet shoes at home this time around.
     
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  18. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Just imagine they go around making that Jabari chant from Black Panther and it works :D
     
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  19. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Impetuous + Stealth never did make that much sense to me...
     
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  20. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Mostly you pay 22 for a cheap "walk on the side" attack piece, with the option to possibly explode something. Generally, explode has been a trap rule since N2. Taryot's explode doesn't seem very good, but the cheap AD is nice. I'm not certain what the bold text is about though? People certainly can use a Taryot at the moment, no problem.

    Models can't be strictly worse if they have access to meaningfully different abilities. The forward deploy on Krakot is pretty damn solid and a good point of differentiation from a Datz. There is also a Red Fury profile that gives access to a battlefield role the Datz doesn't have. And Metachem but no idea if that really matters as I haven't used it with the current chart.

    I mean, I generally agree Krakot is worse, but "strictly worse" is a very specific term.
     
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