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Morat agression force. Whyyyyyyyy

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by Wonderman1st, Oct 4, 2020.

  1. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    I'm sorry, mate. But that's not the army, that's you playing poorly.

    If you're unaware of an enemy attack vector, that's your fault. If you max AVA drop troopers and can't make use of them, that's your fault. If you forget that you can combine skills, that's your fault. You can't make mistakes and blame it on the army, man.

    Like, the other day I took the new and improved Avatar and spent 14 orders on it to walk across the table. Killed 5 models and ended with the big A boi on my enemy deployment zone where he promptly got ganked by a pair of thaigas and died. That's not the Avatar being bad, that's me being silly.

    You have some valid complaints, I'll give you that, but the more I see you post the more I feel like you're just complaining to vent, mate. Take a step back, analize your lists, play the mission. This should help you get the MAF into winning again.
     
  2. Wonderman1st

    Wonderman1st Member

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    why it is a trade-off for us, but not for the majority of Tier 1-2 armies. that is my question. if it is stated that due to the background of the faction different apes do not like to work together or something like that - just type it on the box of miniatures - this army is not flexible, exellent for background games, different nonmixable choices=)

    when you say that 79 points harris with yao and raks is very good for shooting - you have kosmoflot msv1 ap spitfire attacker 13 bs - 10 pts more corefireteam. and lots of examples.
    and by the way - if i want attacker with 12 ballistik - maybe i should go and play vanilla CA? lots of choices and so on...noctifers on the stairs=)
     
  3. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Because they are lacking internal balance, which is a bad thing. I'd hope those tier 1-2 armies (whatever those may be in N4) would be changed to have less clear-cut optimal choices.
     
  4. Wonderman1st

    Wonderman1st Member

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    appologises accepted=)))
    dont' think that it is true - a had very lovely statistics with MAF in N3 - 62% winrate over 127 games - both tts and offline=) i know how to cook this guys.
    on my first satellite i lost only to the world champion in the final game. so i think that i am a little bit capable=)

    you will be very surprised when you will play=)

    i am trying my best in finding the most valid complains.
    i just donno why do you refuse to compare the powerlevel of faction - if there is such possibility.
     
    #64 Wonderman1st, Oct 6, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 6, 2020
  5. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

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    Its a trade off for everyone. Every army has units that do some things well, and others poorly. Every army has strengths and weaknesses.

    You seem to think that MAF has some deficit of linkable wildcards, which seems strange to me. We have kornak and teh Raktorak as wildcards, Anyat as a near Wildcard, Suryats that can join Vanguards and Hungries that can join Oznats. Thats a lot of options to fill links. Some sectorials may have more options or better options, but MAF has other strengths too. Saything that Morats don't like to work together is just weirdly untrue. Especially when MAF was one of the very first sectorials to have mixed links.

    That Kosmolot spitfire you're referring to... do you mean the Unknown Ranger? Okay, lets compare him to a Spitfire Yaogat. He's a LOT better tan a Yaogat, but he's also 15 points more and only has MSV 1 and +1 BS. I think its better to compare him to Kornak, since they're both characters, both wildcards and both similar in price.
     
  6. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Because faction power level is bullshit, mate.

    Back in N3 when we had hard data, we could sorta put the factions in tier lists based on their tournament performance, but every now and then one dude would show up and smash everyone's face with a Tier 5 faction (Again, last season we had MRFF and CHA win big sattelite tournaments in the USA).

    And it's N4 now, so any tier list discussion is just premature. We don't have data, we just have speculation. Don't get me wrong, I agree that Krizas getting to form a full core is bullshit, but Tunguska wasn't winning anything in last season and they might actually need this bullshit. You can counterargue that MAF also wasn't winning anything and they may also need some bullshit, and I will give you that point.

    Still, it's too early to be talking tier lists. Way too early.
     
  7. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

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    I don't think we know the power level of factions right now. Its too soon. It takes months for that kind of thing to become obvious.

    i also think you may be looking at some stuff (like teh Unknown Ranger) in issolation and seeing that it looks powerful compared to something that is superficially similar.

    But I think someone playing Kosmoflot could look at Kornak and see BS 14, CC 22/Berzerk/NBW/DA CCW, NWI/Shock Immunity, ARM 3/BTS9, Mk 12, Strategos 1/+1 order and think "Holy shit, they can put that in ANY Fireteam???"
     
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  8. Wonderman1st

    Wonderman1st Member

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    oh sure. too early to calculate. i am afraid that it will be too late, when you find out that something gone wrong=)
    now it is the best time for hotfixes - the N4 has just started.

    nothing in this profile has something infuencing on ftf.

    my point is that MAF is an army that is loosing ftf. mostly we have ftf rolls not in our advantage - trbot is an exception=))) we could have ap immunity nvi crit immunity - but if are only making save rolls - we will lose. our ftf is always worse
     
    #68 Wonderman1st, Oct 6, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 6, 2020
  9. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

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    Trying to implement fixes thi early is a disastrously bad idea. No data has been gathered. No one has played a significant number of games. We can make educated guesses based on our past experiences, but one thing our pa experiences SHOULD tell us is that we need to play things and try things for an extended number of games before deciding if they're too good or too poor.

    If in 6 months or a year it looks like MAF is underpowered or the Kriza or Unknown Ranger is too powerful thats the point when changes should be made.
     
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  10. Wonderman1st

    Wonderman1st Member

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    why every N we have to wait upgrade while lots of armies are waiting for downgrade? lets us wait for downgrade and laugh over other factions=)

    and noone here even says that maybe there is a slightest possibility of downgrading the uptoday MAF. i think that you see it by yourselfs=)
     
  11. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

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    I mean, that BS14 is helping win a bunch of FTF rolls. Put Kornak in a full fireteam and he's a B4 BS 20 (in his +3 range) shooter. He'll win nearly all his FtF rolls.

    You're right that MAF doesn't have inexpensive gunfighting skills to win FtF shooting rolls against super optimized units from Nomads, PanO or other armies. Thats always been one of our weaknesses. Instead we have other tools to work around that.

    - We have super resilient BS13 and 14 fighters like Kornak, the Raicho, Suryats and Sogarats.

    - We have solid linkable MSV 2 Yaogats to help us fight Mimetism units.That +1B MSR helps a lot too!

    - We do excellent damage, so when our shots do get through they kill.

    - We have lots of smoke, on units we want to take. This helps us control the battlefield and choose when to engage.

    - We have Rodaks with Mimetism -3 and powerful weapons, who can face off against non-MSV troops, even if they have higher BS.

    - We have Datirazi, Hungries, Oznats and Kurgats. All of these are a threat that absolutely cannot be allowed to get to the enemy line and must be dealt with. All are hard to shoot in their own way. this provides target saturation, and helps ensure that some of our threats will reach the enemy, even if we get outshot.

    - We have solid links that allow our durable gunfighters to get Fireteam bonuses.

    - Wed cannot be Isolated, and won't suffer from LoL or Retreat. This means that other armies often have to do a lot more damage to defeat us.

    - The Rasyat can simply walk onto the board and shoot everyone in the back. The Rasyat was my go to option for dealing with entrenched fireteams for the last 2 editions. I don't think that will change.

    - Zerats are now fantastic gunfighters against anything that doesn't have MSV 2. And they bring an excellent selection of guns and tools.

    - Most units that are better shooters are vulnerable to our mines, grenades, direct templates and close combat. most of our units can kick the shit out of similar units in close combat. That Kriza isn't going to survive a Sogarat DAM 15 AP axe!

    Every army has different strengths. MAF has plenty. That doesn't mean that your concerns aren't founded, or that you may not be right. But it will take time to tell. And to me at least (an 11+ year Morat veteran with close to 400 games) MAF is looking pretty good.
     
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  12. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand what you're saying. It may be a language issue. can you explain?
     
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  13. Wonderman1st

    Wonderman1st Member

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    and noone here even says that maybe there is a slightest possibility of downgrading the uptoday MAF. i think that you see it by yourselfs=)

    emm. morats are weak army. maybe CB should make them overpowered and than cut - i think it is better than make them impotent again and than after a year fail to upgrade them to the tier 1 army powerlevel=0)))
    it was a joke=)

    maf have plenty
    but nomads have plenty x 3 times. again and again.
    there was a capitain of russian FB Warhammer team, that said - Some armies have a background and nice tradition just to bend all others.
    In infinity we all know this armies and MAF are not from their ranks=)))

    Zerat in mimetism -6 and cover comes on fusiler in 5 ppl core link with combi. So fussy will shoot 2 on 9 and zerat 3 on 11? this a casino chances
     
    #73 Wonderman1st, Oct 6, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 6, 2020
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  14. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

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    Nomads are an entire faction. MAF is a sectorial. of course Nomads have more good stuff than Infinity.

    If we compare sectorial to sectorial, I think MAF comes out as good or better than Tunguska or Bakunin. Corregidor might be better. of course, thats just my opinion based on N3. I haven't had a chance to play against any N4 Nomads. But really, while the Nomad sectorials have some impressive units, I'm not really intimidated by any of them. I feel like MAF has tools to deal with them. honestly, back in N2 I used to just take Zerats, Yaogats, Daturazi and Hungries, and I feel like I could face Nomads with just those and have a pretty good shot.
     
  15. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    It's approaching 3:1 in favour of the Zerat (44% to 17%), in terms of causing Wounds. So no, it's not 'casino chances'.

    With a Red Fury or a Boarding Shotgun it's about 4:1 to the Zerat.
     
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  16. Wonderman1st

    Wonderman1st Member

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    uberfallcommando that costs 20 pts will execute everyone. intruder will kill everyone without chances on ftf
     
  17. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Using hyperbole is just going to get your posts ignored.
     
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  18. Wonderman1st

    Wonderman1st Member

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    and noone here even says that maybe there is a slightest possibility of downgrading the uptoday MAF. i think that you see it by yourselfs=)
    zerat with redfurry costs 29 pts. how many orders will she spend to kill enough fussies to compensate herself=) how will she go through aro of Pano. spend lots of orders just to rely on 44% to kill the model worth 10 pts? no way. zerat are good as specialists, not as assasins=))

     
  19. Reece

    Reece EI Aspect
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    I think this may be why I don't understand most of your "complaints". You're focused SOO much on the BS attack face to face rolls as the #1 thing in Infinity. But it's not. Not by a long shot. Hell, I'll go the long way around if it means I don't have to roll dice and can still win.

    From my little quick search, Nomads have ZERO Chain of Command and suffer GREATLY from losing their LT. Did you know MAF picked up a pretty sweet LT Surgical Removal Tool? It's called a Taryot.

    You know what happens to my left handed buddies if they lose the LT? Nothing. They keep rocking on like it's all cool and the Raicho gets an extra order.

    There's so much more to Infinity than BS Attack Face to Face rolls. I really think this edition has added a fair bit of reasons to do other things. Hell, Dodge will be your best bet a lot times and you still get to move now.
     
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  20. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

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    No one responds to it because no one knows what you mean. The sentence doesn't make any sense.

    In my experience Zerats were always pretty good at taking apart active threats. And now that they have Mimetism -6 and a better set of tools I expect they'll be even better. How will she get through the AROs of PanO?

    - Smart deployment using Infiltration.

    - Moving from cover to cover and relying on dode and Mimetism -6 to help her get to where she needs to be.

    - Smoke support form Daturazi or Oznats.

    - Fire support from Suryats, Sogarats, Raicho, Rodaks or Yaogats to get where she needs to be.

    - Targeting non MSV units for favorable face to face rolls.

    Honestly, Choose any two from the list above and that should be enough. I spent all of N2 and N3 using Zerats to take apart PanO armies. They usually did just fine unless I had bad luck or there was a very bad terrain situation. Now that Zerats are even better I expect to do better with them.
     
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