1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Morat agression force. Whyyyyyyyy

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by Wonderman1st, Oct 4, 2020.

  1. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,003
    Likes Received:
    4,890
    Usually, the advantage is in the hands of the attacker. You don't count on winning shootouts with your ARO pieces, but to make the enemy lose orders trying to advance. Which is why setting a single ARO piece is suboptimal, and Flash Pulse bots are so great.

    Why Yaogat Haris? Because the Core will be of Vanguards (with the only Vanguard being the paramedic), possibly with the HRL Suryat because of his MSV1, Anyat, Raktorak, Kornak...

    For me, Morat is not a fancy toolbox of an army, but an assault & shock one. With options, sure, but brutality is the norm, not subtetly. Heck, only the Zerat and the Rasyat have Stealth, despite having several more with Martial Arts.

    Maybethe choice of faction was unfortunate, if the gameplay matters more than looks for you. People always goes for the easy and (in truth) weak argument of "choose the faction with the models you like the most", and then, frustration.
     
  2. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    6,823
    Likes Received:
    13,866
    Now try it again, but with Burst 4 from the Yaogat.
     
  3. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    808
    Likes Received:
    1,004
    Guys, we have to stop replying to whine-posts, even when we see it as an opportunity for constructive input.
     
  4. melkiach

    melkiach PheroBoosted

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    900
    Likes Received:
    974
    Thanks, +1
     
  5. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    84
    As a veteran Morat player (I started running Morat amies before MAF existed) I'm mostly very happy with N4 MAF. In the past I've been extremely vocal about the army's weaknesses, but I feel like this new edition has answered so many of those problems in ways that satisfy me. Of course, Morats have a long history of finally getting the improvements they need just as the rest of the game is moving on to something better. It doesn't really look like thats whats happening this time, but I guess we'll see over the next year. I'm fairly optimistic about our toolbox though.

    I'm very excited by changes to Suryats, Sogarats, Zerats, the Raicho, Daturazi, Rasyat and Raktoraks (although I still wish Raktoraks brought a little more weapon or skill versatility with them to make them more appealing as wildcards beyond their relatively cheap price). All of these units (except Daturazi) needed work, and in my opinion they all got what they needed.

    Rodaks, Vanguard, Krakot, Kurgat and Yaogats all still seem... average. The Yaogat MSR is pretty fantastic though. Although the +1 DAM profile seems pointless compared to the very good +1 Burst.

    The new Dropsuit seems neat.

    I feel like the only losers are Oznats and Hungries. Of course, Hungries are great on their own. But the change to the Oznat fireteam just makes it very unattractive (at least to me). I can understand not wanting it to be an order battery. I've personally never liked that idea and can 100% support eliminating that use. However, this has a few side effects:

    - Without the Hungries order battery, hich was a staple for a LOT of MAF players (even me, sometimes), MAF suddenly has lost its only source of cheap orders. And its not as if we saw big pont drops to compensate (and I wasn't expecting we would). But MAF is now, more than ever, a ctorial of expensive units. What we did see is extra orders in the form of tactical Sense and +1 Lt Order, and some NCO. Which helps a lot. But it also shifts play toward a few specific units (Suryat, Sogarat, Raicho, Kornak, Raktorak). That's a fairly broad list, and gives us some nice options, but its also a very big shift from what a lot of MAF players were running. Big changes aren't bad, but they are big. They take some time getting used to.

    - The Hungries link itself is much less appealing. Paying +16 points (for 4 Gakis) to give an Oznat fireteam bonuses is a solid investment, but it comes at the cost of giving up the Hungries' 8 activations. Its even less attractive with 4 Pretas (for 28 points). Both versions of Hungries have always been pretty great, and now with Gakis' Berserk and both Hungries having AP CCW I want them running around the board causing trouble using their activations more than ever. Binding them into a Fireteam just seems like a waste, unless you need to spend a turn herding them.

    - I REALLY don't like the idea of Oznat teams being cheap boosters for Kornak or a Raktorak. I feel like it really just goes against the whole feel of what the Oznat and Hungries are supposed to be (just like using the Hungries as an order battery did).

    - Its hard for me to see the Oznat fireteam as an attractive option at all compared to other Core fireteam options we have. Because of that I'm kind of surprised Oznats didn't get Haris instead of Core.

    - The Oznat itself is a pretty underwhelming solo unit. They are better than they were before, and their MOV 6-4 and universal DA CCW does give them a small niche. But they compare very poorly to Daturazi, who bring better CC, PH MA4, Mimetism, Berserk and (depending on the profile, Grenades and B2 Chainrifles. The Oznat is 2 points more or the same price, depending on the profile, but she just really doesn't seem worth it unless you really love the Vulkan Shotgun or absolutely need a SGL and can't afford the Daturazi's extra .5 SWC.

    When I complained about the Oznat in the past people would always tell me that the unit is there to allow us to take Hungries, and it doesn't need to be worthwhile on its own. Now we don't need it to take Hungries in our lists, and the Oznat fireteam is suddenly very unattractive. So Oznats really need to be worthwhile on their own. I think their big problem is that they fill the same niche as Daturazi while being almost universally worse (with the exception of MOV). I wish that all profiles had received Sensor. That seems so obvious to me,and its something that a lot of us requested since the unit appeared in paradiso. Tying the Sensor into the alright but expensive 27 point Preta sync profile just makes the other two profiles even less attractive. I also kind of wish that Oznats had gotten Berserk instead of Daturazi. Berserk is a great boost for Daturazi, but on Oznats it would have differentiated the units and given Oznats a slightly different close combat role. Although really Krakots already ill that role. So I guess what I' rather see is Oznats shifting toward a hunter role. Sensor and Stealth would have been a good start. Honestly, I'm amazed that the greatest hunteers in the setting don't have stealth.

    ---


    i haven't had a chance to try N4 yet, but I do plan to field sole Oznats (and the Oznat/Hungries fireteam) several times to see if my opinion changes.
     
  6. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    84
    I don't know. There's so little MAF discussion here.

    Plus, he may have some points.
     
    #26 jake richmond, Oct 6, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2020
    the huanglong and Dr.Lycosid like this.
  7. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    6,823
    Likes Received:
    13,866
    Note that you can now form the Fireteam during the game, so you can use the Impetuous and Irregular Orders, then form the Fireteam. This is likely to be particularly useful if going second, as it allows you to start the game with a defensive Fireteam: Core for the Reactive Turn.
     
    Time Bandit and SpectralOwl like this.
  8. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    84
    I don't agree with everything Wonderman said, but I do think he's brought p a few things which MAY end up being concerns, at least for some people. Instead of just dismissing all of his points or posting lists of what we're enthusiastic about, maybe its worth actually addressing some of his points that are legitimate?

    - I do agree with him that the Oznat fireteams are now underwhelming (for the reasons I mentioned above). Their still an option, but they now instead of providing orders for your army they act as a drain on them. They also come with the HUGE opportunity costs of not being able to take a different Core fireteam and losing out on 8 Hungries activations. people who were leaning on this fireteam before either to be efficient killers or an order battery ill have to majorly change the way they play and build lists. Is that a bad thing? It doesn't bother me too much, but it may bother others a LOT more.

    - The Sogarat and Kriza have different strengths, but the kiriza's B6 HMG is alarming. I had assumed the reason Sogarats couldn't join a Haris or Core was because their AP +1 DAM HMG would be too powerful. But that seems unlikely in the face of the Kriza's B6 HMG with full fireteam bonuses. I think that the Sogarat is still a good unit and I think I'd rather have a solo Sogarat than a solo Kriza. But it does make me wonder why we couldn't have our Sogarat haris back, and it is the first suggestion that MAF may again be meeting the power curve just as other sectorials are stepping beyond it. But I think we need to wait and see.

    - Rodak price increases are similar to what we've seen in other MI, but it doesn't mean that they're fun. I'm curious to see if rodaks still get a lot of play compared to Yaogats or mixed Suryat and Vanguard links. I think they still have a role, but Suryats or Suryat/Anyat/Vanguard re very appealing alternatives. Even Kurgats and Daturazi have stepped into this niche.

    - He's right. BS 12 isn't great. Morats have always had very average BS, but unlike many (nut not all) other armies, we don't make up for it with gun fighting skills. Thats one of the things that made the Rodaks so popular last edition. Their BS 12 plus Mimetism made them our best shooters. Yaogats are an expensive unit (especially in a link), and BS 12 can make you understandably nervous. The +1 B MSR helps a lot I think. I also think that we'll see the Yaogat's MSV2 and ARM 3 matter more now than in N3. or at least I hope so.


    I don't think any of these are army breaking problems or necessarily make these units bad, but these are all weaknesses that we just have to accept. oznat teams aren't as good as they are. Rodaks are more expensive. BS 12 on our two main gunfighting units is't so great. he's not wrong about these things. So maybe we can talk about ways to lay around these weaknesses, or take advantage of other strengths these units have?
     
    Barrogh, toadchild, xagroth and 2 others like this.
  9. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    84
    Yeah, that is nice. Of course, it was weird that the Oznat had that restriction previously. If I remember correctly, they were the only fireteam restricted in that specific way?
     
    Hecaton likes this.
  10. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,779
    Likes Received:
    8,101
    Also, I can see uses for being able to move the whole fireteam up the field, then switching Core and reposition/make attack runs with Hungries using their Irregular orders.
     
  11. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    84
    Sure. you're right. Thats what I meant when I described Oznat's herding Hungries for a turn or two. And from what I can tell that's how most players have always used the Oznat fireteam. So that's nothing new. The difference now is that you lose out on the Hungries' orders and have to spend orders from some other source to move the team into position. Hungries are cheap as hell, but spending points for troops that don't provide any activations at all for the first turn (or two) isn't attractive, even if they are giving your Oznat fireteam bonuses.

    I'm not saying that the Oznat team is bad, or that it can't be used in the same way as before. Its certainly not the end of the world or the death of the unit. But it does have a large drawback now, and to me its much less attractive (and I didn't even like it as an order battery, like many people did)
     
  12. bladerunner_35

    bladerunner_35 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2017
    Messages:
    172
    Likes Received:
    250
    I've come across this before and I don't see the appeal. I would love for someone to explain (not being sarcastic here) how Berserk has made Daturatzis even better? Surely they'll get killed in return? Against a line infantry it's not a worthwhile exchange (especially with TW) and more elite units with two wounds can probably tank even a crit?

    Also, for the record, if one of the major complaints is that MAF didn't get a Kriza Borac with Burst 6 then we're in a pretty good place. I think that's one of the main reasons OP's complaints sounds more like whining than anything else. Especially when disregarding amazing boosts like Immunity AP Suryats and Parachutist Dep. Zone.
     
    Savnock likes this.
  13. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    6,823
    Likes Received:
    13,866
    Note that the base Dāturazi now comes with a DA CCW, so a Crit is going to be forcing three Saving Rolls, against Damage 17, which has reasonable odds of taking down most 2W targets.
     
  14. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    84
    Daturazi with Berserk is a very real buff for two reasons:

    - You can use Berserk to reach close combat in situations where you would have been up to 4 inches short. This has won me games multiple times with Domaru, and I expect it will with Daturazi as well.

    - You now have a choice. Use Berserk, or just rely on MA4. Both have value. If you absolutely need to kill a unit and can't afford to risk losing a face to face roll, Berserk is the way to go. or is you're facing a close combat specialist with similar skill. Trading a Daturazi to eliminate a dangerous enemy unit is the right call in many situations.

    Remember that a 14 point Daturazi is hitting with a Dam 14 DA weapon. For a lot of 2 wound models that will result in 2 dangerous AM rolls.


    I agree that he's ignoring some amazing boosts. I do think the B6 Kriza is something we should all pay attention to. Maybe in a year it will seem just fine, or maybe his fears will be justified. The unit does look like a beast! I do think that he's ignoring the Sogarats several solo strengths in comparison to the Kriza fireteam strength.
     
    DaRedOne likes this.
  15. Wonderman1st

    Wonderman1st Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2019
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    10
    ok, lets turn my whine into some solid discussion=))))))
    i want to apologise for previous way of discussion, if it hurt someone. I didnt' intend it for real - i just wanted to have some kind of MAF discussion in the field of comparing it with other TIER1 armies - i think that we all know what armies we are talking about.
    As to make some resume to all above -
    i had 5 games on N4 - with bahram - i lost totally because i was unaware of the new unit, that has hidden deployment and flamenspeer.
    game against Kosmoflot - it was a total mess - unknoun rainger with 5 dice ap spitfire+mimetism and msv1 in attack just wiped out everything=)
    game against corregidor - i took rasyat, 3 drop toyotas and they litteraly did nothing because the skilled opponent would not place vore than 2 models under the airstrike and they will dodge+min 2 models ready to shoot aro into my unit.
    I really do think that for the use of command token would be very nice to put zerat minelayer in supression fire - this unit will consume minimum 2 orders from the active player in attack
    Also i do think that tactical window is not a very good option 4 morats, because even when we do not have oznat+hungries fireteam, we still can swarm the mid field with cheap guys on no restrictions games.
    I still think that DWS were better cc boyz when they had 2 attacks, because it was enlarging their chance for survival + new rules fir the mcv 1 reducing the importance of the regular smokes. And still we do not have the wildcard that can go into the daturazi fireteam shoot through the smoke, as for example the kosmoflot recieved, or OSS.
     
  16. Wonderman1st

    Wonderman1st Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2019
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    10
    when you say that i ignore real good changes - that is not true=)
    but changes that you point at are not great.
    for me, one of the great changes is the appearence of the Suryat MSV1 with hrl. combined with the ap immunity he is a very solid aro choice, combined with the zerat minelayer in supression and TRbot we have a solid defence now. Surely, it is not a kamau but it is good.
    also for me the change for rasyat is not very great. you may say that i am insane, but he was very good previously and i had good results with MAF in our leagues.
    mostly i whine because of lack of tactical flexibity that appears to present in most armies. if we want attacking fireteam - the only choice is vanguard with suryat, because he is not a wildcart for other cores. if we want strong defence (strong in MAF way - we again need suryat with msv1 and he also goes only to vanguards). that is mostly my point. for example i would take yaogat wildcard with spitfire for the attack, even if he has ballistic 12 and 1 wound. or i would take suryat to rodoks. but it is impossible.
     
  17. Aldo

    Aldo Spare 15

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,178
    Likes Received:
    1,774
    DAM 17, MA4 adds +3 damage
     
  18. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    697
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    I'll also jump in that I'm extremely pleased with the MAF changes for the reasons previously stated. The only key changes I'm not so sure on are:

    1. The removal of KHD and any attack programs outside of the Zerat when at least sucker punch was everywhere before. Granted the hacking game is a brand new unexplored land now, even when I've take hacking lists i've not actually used it yet in my 4 games.

    2. The hungries link nerf. However is that really so bad? does MAF really need to squander it's core link (which can now be an aggressive pain train to keep up with most other sectorials) to be a battery when LT2, tac awareness and NCO are floating around on the things you want to power? It was always a crutch but in my opinion the underlying issue (order starvation for the thing you actually want to use) is gone and it keeps your 15 order generating slots free and lets you use hungries as the flush and chase disposable pieces they were clearly designed to be bought with loose change at the end of list creation.
     
    bladerunner_35 and Wonderman1st like this.
  19. Wonderman1st

    Wonderman1st Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2019
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    10
    i am extremly sorry, but when you hit with berserk you only recieve critical for 17+ roll, it is about 20% on 1 dice. and in respond you will mostly die
    or i am allowed to use MA4 when i use berserk? if it is true, than daturazi is omg give me 4 give me 5=) plus if you can dodge on the active turn without lof and without recieving aro and next order just say berserk this motherlover=)
     
    bladerunner_35 likes this.
  20. Aldo

    Aldo Spare 15

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,178
    Likes Received:
    1,774
    MA adds to berserk, so you get a critical on a 14+

    And if your daturazi had to use berserk then whatever he's gonna kill is probably absurdly more expensive, so worth it.
     
    Wonderman1st and ijw like this.