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Moonchild‘s Transmutation - Trigger at 1 damage?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Croepoek, Jan 9, 2020.

  1. Croepoek

    Croepoek Well-Known Member

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    Cards are just out, so I have a quick question about it:

    Can I trigger it after losing one health or does it have to be two? Not sure about the wording on the card.
     
  2. rag1n

    rag1n Well-Known Member
    Warcor Aristeia

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    I'd say the wording is weird but you'll transform as long as you take damage
     
  3. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    I'm not sure what the issue is with the wording, but to me it's clear that you can transform after only 1:4:.

    The fact that she has an ability to deal 1:4: to herself if she doesn't get damaged in a combat roll really only reinforces that point.
     
  4. CAnon

    CAnon Well-Known Member

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    Looking back at the wording, I don't think it's even a question of "can". Transmutation seems to be mandatory.
     
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  5. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Oh, yes, absolutely true.
     
  6. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    It DOES have to be 2. Instead of going to Infirmary, she transform.

    Confirmed elsewhere by @-V- that may appear here too... (Summon -V- basic level)
     
  7. -V-

    -V- A! Team member
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    I've not been summoned as these forums seem to fail at noticing (in my experience). The answer is: Moonchild has to receive -at least- her second Damage token, so she has to go to the Infirmary and then Transmutation gets activated (she receives Damage and before she's sent to the Infirmary).

    It's the same timing as Epic Regeneration.
     
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  8. Damiel

    Damiel Domaru sexytorizado :3
    Warcor

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    This is not correct. She can deal herself 1:4: after resolving a Combat (...); but the "doesn't get damaged" clause doesn't exists. It's supposed to be here in case Moonchild receives only 1:4:, so she can take the second :4: and activate Transmutation

    And yes, Transmutation is mandatary ONLY when Moonchild (initial form) receives 2:4: (not needed to be at the same moment btw). The point is that the timing is only available when she has enough damage to be placed on the Infirmary, but just before she is actually placed (remember that "Characters in the Infirmary are not in the HexaDome, so they cannot be the Target of any Effect." as per Wiki, so the cannot takes precedence over every other rule. That's why it has to be "but before", because if she's placed on the Infirmary, then you woldn't be able to activate Transmutation).

    Btw, same explanation goes to Mr. Massacre's Epic regeneration or Prysm's Refractation

    :3
     
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  9. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Oh, I understand how her Inner Beast works.

    But the wording of Transmutation is, not good.

    This will certainly need an FAQ as soon as we get a new doc.
     
  10. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    now I am seriously confused. Does she go to the infirmary if she loses more than 2 at once or does stay in the hexadome and transforms?

    According to the wording, i assumed she transorms whenever she takes damage.
     
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  11. CAnon

    CAnon Well-Known Member

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    She stays. After taking damage but before going to the Infirmary she transforms, removing all states and tokens.
    So even if she takes 12 damage, she just flips over, with none of the damage carrying over to profile 2.

    But I agree in the english wording you could take it to mean she transforms at 1 damage, had they not clarified the intent further up thread. Putting it in the next FAQ would probably be appreciated.
     
  12. Damiel

    Damiel Domaru sexytorizado :3
    Warcor

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    @CAnon can you play Holographic sight without performing an Action?

    :3
     
  13. CAnon

    CAnon Well-Known Member

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    No, that is "Before taking an action" by definition if you do not perform an action you are not about to take an action.
    And I am aware it is the same timing as Senor Massacre's Epic Regeneration: "After taking damage, but before being sent to the Infirmary [...]".
    The issue is entirely with the "but" and comma, which serves to break up the sentence and make the infirmary section seem as if it were a conditional clause only sometimes relevant.

    I don't know how it reads in Spanish, but in English you could make a good case for that being off any damage. Particularly for people unused to the Massacre precedent, or how Dog-Faces work within the Infinity setting.
    You may ask, why hasn't this been a problem with Senor Massacre? Well, that's because with ER you are actively incentivised to play it as late as possible (to remove as much damage as you can). Whereas with Moonchild you may very well want her to transform ASAP.
    Unfortunately, even if it weren't likely too late to edit before printing, i'm not sure of any concise wording which would resolve the issue (certainly not within the confines of previously used timing templating).
     
  14. Damiel

    Damiel Domaru sexytorizado :3
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    From the Wiki (Tactics entry)

    So there's no "conditional" anything, you can only play a tactic when you hit the exact timing, so if an aristo isn't going to go to the Infirmary, there's no "before being sent to the Infirmary"

    :3
     
  15. CAnon

    CAnon Well-Known Member

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    If that's the case, several tactics don't work. Spot an opening, for instance, can now only be used if the opponent gets a Critical Block result (as it refers to "Before the Critical Block and Switches of [...]" as opposed to "Before the Critical Block and Switches steps of [...]"). Ditto for Max's Adamantine which now only activates if your opponent is foolish enough to trigger multiple Switches.

    I understand neither of these are the case, but it's another example of how the writing could be misinterpreted if you go by what is exactly written, exactly as it is written. Thankfully they are both common enough timings that I've never seen anyone interpret them that way. But you could.

    I'm not trying to be a pedant or contrarian, it's just the way it reads in English is likely to confuse new players, and an FAQ up early to point people towards before they learn bad habits and incorrect rulings will really help mitigate that.
     
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  16. -V-

    -V- A! Team member
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    Take it easy, guys. We're preparing new FAQ right now and we'll give an answer to this question, indeed.

    Thank you for your concern!

    :wink: