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Montesa Biker / Bikes in melee

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by MrMorphine482, Nov 6, 2018.

  1. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Author is supposedly Lee Chak Khuen (Puppeteer Lee)
     
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  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Somehow the Knights and Swords discussions here seem to be forgetting about relative physics.

    Sure an unaugmented human wielding a longsword onehanded has trouble dealing with a wooden shield or basic armour already.
    The same guy wielding an upsized version of the same weapon concept with both hands, lets say a Zweihänder, thus applying more mass and momentum against the same shield or armour, meant to hold off the onehanded longsword, will probably crush the formerly sufficient means of protection.

    Back to Infinity we have a physically agumented HI dude, able to wield a sword much larger, and heavier than a classic medeival long sword, against opponents with armour meant to protect them from mostly ballistic weapons.
    That guy is going to literally cut Infinity's equivalent of ARM1/2 in half with a single swing. You wouldn't have to worry about losing your weapon against something that isn't able to stop its momentum.

    Then again this is forgetting that a sword isn't limited to cutting, slicing and stabbing. It's a large slab of metal after all and historically proven to be quite versatile. A genereic long sword is still capable of breaking bones through impact through armour or to get turned upside down to club your opponent with pommel and guard if the blade proves ineffective.

    I'm not quite sure how much HI gets augmented by their servo muscles, but it should improve one specific part rather drastically, grip strength. Disarming a HI, even by accident, should be quite hard. Servo muscles unaffected by surprise, clamping down on a grip piece made to fit the gauntlet, possibly coated with some sort of agent (probably Tesium powder, that stuff is magic after all) make the sword close to an actual extension of the armour. Servo muscles ready to dampen an impact human senses didn't expect or saw coming also play a part.

    It shouldn't be much of a stretch to claim a Swiss can handle that massive Zweihänder of his one handed.
    Overall I'd just upscale a Infinity HI to a bigger dude with a bigger sword to imagine what his physical properties in CC would look like. We're probably easily misguided into comparing a HI to someone with comparable size, when lets say, his servos might allow him to beat the current world record for deadlift under slight strain.
     
    #22 Teslarod, Nov 7, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  3. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Exactly!

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Motorcycles actually already have gyrostabilizers, the wheels themselves. They aren't necessarily heavy (there are design reasons you don't want a super-heavy wheel, or even one with most of it's weight on the rim), but they do work. I'm not a rider myself, but I'm told that a big bike like a Harley or GoldWing has pretty significant gyro effect keeping it upright.

    Wish I could find the film of an old French Cavalry unit charging. late 1890s timeframe, IIRC. Had the swords coming point-forward, as if the sword was a replacement for a lance.

    While I really would like a Montessa Lancer, I'd settle for a mace or a cavalry warhammer. I've seen some footage of bored bikers jousting on Harleys before, the problem is that the control hand for a motorcycle is the same as most people's weapon hands, and that resting the lance on the throttle will result in the throttle getting hammered open on impact.
     
  5. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    [​IMG]

    As I said above, in Infinity the motorcycles are perfectly capable of driving themselves. Or the Knight can drive without using their hands at all. There's no reason, except for tradition or style, they have to use analogue controls, leaving their hands free for weapons.

     
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  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That wasn't that video I was thinking of, I am remembering one that showed the different bugle calls and stages of the charge, the different troops of the squadron are all in line abreast until they bugler sounds the actual charge, then the different horses break into their actual gallop and some start to pull ahead. The entire cavalry regiment was on a big loop, imagine a running track around a sports field that has a hill at one end of it.

    That video does show leading with the point of the saber like I was talking about, though, so nice find!
     
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  7. MrMorphine482

    MrMorphine482 Well-Known Member

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    There are a few things I question regarding the validity of thrusting swords for cavalry use, and let me state that this is a point of confusion regarding technique, and I'd really like to know why these points might be invalid.

    1.) Looking at that photo, look at the reach of the swords vs. the size of the horses. You're going to be trampling or overrunning people before you can hit them, esp. given the height difference between the mounted soldier and an infantryman. It seems like a tactic to be used against other cavalry, and even then more as an intimidation tactic to break a formation or incidental hit given the range involved.

    2.) Actually thrusting with the arm outstretched like that means you will hit someone and drive the weapon into (and through) them. I am assuming ideally you would then tear through the side of the target to free the weapon, but this seems like a good way to tear one's pectoral muscles, break an arm or fingers, lose a sword etc when charging at velocity. I am not understanding the follow-through on this technique if you do manage to skewer somebody.

    3.) The mass difference between a horse and a motorcycle is still seeming like a noteworthy obstacle. Horses weigh 700lbs on the low end (not warhorses, which can crest 900-1000lbs) and motorcycles are 700lbs on the high end per what I've been able to find out. Considering also the height difference and angles of impact on a ride-by attack, it sounds like there's a lot of ways to get thrown from one's motorcycle that you wouldn't necessarily encounter on horseback.

    I say again, I am legitimately asking out of curiosity; not condemning or anything of the sort. Can anybody speak to these?
     
  8. MrNailbrain

    MrNailbrain Relentless Optimist

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    In a universe where bipedal robots are not only stable but fast and commonplace, I think that Infinity scientists have gyroscopic stabilization techniques pretty much nailed down.

    Bipedal robots are pretty much the holy grail of gyro development. Currently the only computer in the world advanced enough to keep a bipedal frame upright through terrain changes and directional changes at a high speed is the human brain.
     
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  9. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    I say we are getting there



     
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  10. MrMorphine482

    MrMorphine482 Well-Known Member

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    I suppose part of me had mistakenly considered a Motorcycle functionally un-alien in its functionality, relatively the same as we'd have today regardless of the kind of equipment used et cetera. It's easy to forget how much technology can improve/change things in subtle ways like gyros or Geist personal assistants, beyond just the overt.
     
  11. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    I think there's a very good chance the Bike Montessa will be depicted with an appropriate cavalry weapon. CB's up on their historical combat, so that may in fact be represented on the mini. Perhaps not a lance, but a flail, pick, mace, hammer, etc.

    Talking to a friend of mine who is a professor, martial artist, and involved in the Battle of the Nations, he mentioned that swords are by no means uncommon in the tradition of European mounted warfare. They're perhaps not ideal, but they were still a common sight.
     
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  12. MrMorphine482

    MrMorphine482 Well-Known Member

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    Oh, no doubt of that; I trust CB to do their diligence and deliver something awesome. :)

    And I agree; swords are a sidearm as I previously mentioned, whatever the situation having a sword or being good with a sword would mean you were "okay," and not at a horrendous disadvantage depending on what weapon you were dealing with from the opponent.
     
  13. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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  14. MrMorphine482

    MrMorphine482 Well-Known Member

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    I went ahead and watched the first video while I was on break at work; it makes sense and addresses a couple of my concerns pretty well, plus functionally dipping the sword into the target and recovering like that would cause some HORRIFIC injuries to the target. I'm still not sure how well the technique would work at higher speeds than a charging horse or at the lower elevation of being on a motorcycle, but I can also see the power armor mitigating some of those effects.

    That's better than I usually get from Matt Easton (I have a few issues with his vids I won't get into here); I'll check out the other two videos once I'm off the clock.
     
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  15. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    It's important to keep in mind that the Sword will be a sidearm here too. Firearms will be the primary weapons.

    And, as demonstrated above, the use of the Sword in this way is perfectly historical.
     
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  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    As far as weight goes, don't forget that the Montessa is wearing power armor, which is usually assumed to weigh about as much as the person wearing it. So we're talking 500+lbs of Knight. Now, a big motorcycle like a Valkyrie (725lbs wet) can handle that much weight pretty easily, and still pop wheelies (online friend of mine used to weigh 425 and rode with his not-small wife behind him sometimes).

    So you're really talking about the same 1200-odd lbs as a medieval knight on armored horseback, but with 100x the engine power behind it, and closer to the ground. Also, medieval warhorses were relatively small, 14-15 hands (56-60" at the shoulder, saddle is about the same).

    As I mentioned before, bored bikers have done motorcycle jousting. First known time is the early 1980s, when some asshat in San Diego Park Service allowed the local SCA guys to rent a park for fighter practice that was the usual hangout for the San Diego chapter of Hell's Angels. I think the asshat was trying to get the Angels to beat down the SCAdians, but when 'Uncle John' to a SCAdian showed up he got the 'what the SCA does' story. Angels promptly said, well, this bike is my horse, so let's joust! SCAdians said, you guys still need armor and shields, because you WILL get severely injured without them. 30 minutes later, there was not a single steel garbage can to be found around that park, and the Angels had their armor and shields.
     
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  17. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    What's that in real measurements?
     
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  18. Gunmage

    Gunmage General Contact Unit

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    Note that DA sword might not rely on momentum to deal damage. I vaguely recall these weapons being something like multiple-use explosives delivery system, or something like that.
    pounds/0,453592==kilograms. According to wiki, modern Clydesdale horses can go up to 1000 kg (~2200 lbs), and weigh 820 to 910 kg on average (around 1500 lbs). The heaviest bike currently in production is Harley CVO Road Glide Ultra @ 439kg wet weight (~750 lbs).
     
    #38 Gunmage, Nov 8, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  19. MrMorphine482

    MrMorphine482 Well-Known Member

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    I'd also point out that, IIRC Clydesdale horses are a working breed - they're CAPABLE of being trained for war, but warhorses were generally light weight (weighing approximately 800 to 1,000 pounds or 360 to 450 kg) or medium weight (weighing approximately 1,000 to 1,200 pounds or 450 to 540 kg, the higher end is what's usually described as a destrier). There WERE heavyweight horses on the field, but they were usually draft animals like the Clydesdale pulling baggage and carts. While predisposed to staying calm in battle they weren't used as chargers (though it is debated if mounted knights used them on occasion).
     
  20. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Which one were the horses that the dudes in heavy armor rode? I suppose they had to be big/strong enough to carry the guy and the armor, had to be somewhat fast (not sure if this is actually true) and still had to stay calm when the shit hit the fan around it.
     
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